cavadge

Hey all,

Today is the culmination of six intense days of research, reading, endless surfing and endless notes and drawings. My quest - I need a new setup for my moms. They grew in a Rainforest 318, three plants, but I'm out of room, and the plants need more light, so I'm getting a 4X4 tent and moving the moms in there. There will be 4 plants, each having 4 sq ft, to grow nice little bushes for lots of clones.

I am hooked on aeroponic type systems - I use an Aeroflo 36, a Rainforest, and have an aerocloner. Each of these has it's shortcomings. I wanted a system to address those shortcomings. One thing led to another, etc, and in the last couple of days all the pieces have come together. I looked at all the different commercially available systems and growing methods - drip, DWC, hybrid systems, sprayers and misters, etc. etc. I was intrigued by TAG (true aeroponic growing), the premise of which is a superfine mist of 5 micron or so droplets of nutrient solution. Factors which make this prohibitive for the hobby grower are cost, complexity, and power consumption.

Ultrasonic foggers seem to be the answer. They generate gobs of 5 micron particles. Nutramist makes these foggers. But they are expensive. I've found an online source for a similar product, using the same teflon coated transducers, for a lot less money. These are nothing that new, and yet there just doesn't seem to be many people growing with this technology, and a scarcity of info.

Well, I'm taking the plunge. I am first going to build a mom fogger grow system, using inexpensive components, plant some well rooted clones, and see what happens. If it pans out, I will be building a bigger system for a grow, and and may yet replace the Aeroflo.

I've gotten many good ideas from the supplier, and will be experimenting a fair bit with this. I'm very excited about the possibilities. The supplier tells me that I can use a lot less nutes and get spectacular results. I'll use less water, and less power to run the system. Maintenance involves sticking the fogger in a bucket of white vinegar to clean out all salt deposits three or four times a year, and replacing the transducer discs once a year.

The pics of root systems grown in fog are breathtaking. I'll be using a three head system for my moms. The supplier is about ready to release a 10 head unit for bigger grows.

This will be a stricly fog grow - no drippers or sprayers, or anything else. I should be able to put together a two container system, for four moms, or 20 odd plants, for about $200. Don't know if anyone else has any interest in something like this. If you do, speak up. I'll make up parts lists and costs, take pics of everything as it comes together, and update with grow progress.

So - any other fogger wannabes out there? Chime in, and let's get building.

cavadge

So my goal with this is what I guess most everyone is after - the highest yield within a given space, in the shortest time, with the least amount of fuss. I've grown outdoors and indoors with soil, but found hydroponics to provide amazing growth rates. While I've gotten good results, I feel the plants are not reaching their full potential.

Root growth is somewhat of an issue with the Aeroflo. The trays aren't very deep; the roots hit bottom then have to spread horizontally. They lay on top of each other matted down by the spray. I've noted plants closest to the res do best, as they can extend down the drain holes in the trays and spread out in the res.

And while the Rainforest works well and has depth for the root mass, it's too small for keeping moms long term, as I've come to find out. So I was looking to create a bucket system for my moms with a spray system using those miniature sprayers like those in my aerocloner. But I wanted as fine a spray as possible. One thing led to another and I ended up looking at the Nutramist foggers. Too pricey for my budget, but I was intrigued by the concept of using ultrasonic transducers to nebulize a nutrient solution (worked with ultrasonic transducers in years past). And after looking into it a fair bit I've decided to give it go.

So here is the premise of the system I've come up with...

Roots do best when fed with an utra-fine nutrient solution in the 5 micron range. They drink that up like a sponge. Optimal nutrient uptake = healthy roots = healthy plants = good growth and yield.

So this transducer system will generate this super-fine fog. But it isn't just a matter of sticking it in a res and plugging it in. The fog will be generated, and will fill the res and get to the roots, but it will just hang there and settle. There is also heat generated in the fog process, which will raise res temps. To make this really work the fog needs to be moving.

By generating the fog in a separate chamber, then (very gently) blowing it through a manifold system and into the reservoirs at the root zone, the roots get a constantly circulating nutrient fog. And bonus, the air moving the fog cools it down almost instantly. In theory I won't need a chiller.

The reservoirs will contain the nutrient solution and be interconnected to maintain an even level. The fog chamber will be fed a nutrient solution through a hose coming out of the res. What settles will fall back into the res to be recirculated. The solution also provides a nice place for the water roots to drink. While both res' will be aerated with water stones, I will be adding a small aquarium/pond pump to keep circulating it between the two units. It seems important to keep it in motion.

I'll be growing in 3 inch netpots, while some might think these are inadequate, I grew an 8 foot sativa with a 1 1/4 inch stalk in one of these. It will be just netpots and a neoprene insert. No hydroton, no rockwool, nothing else.

Now I've read where some have tried something like this in grow trays, but they aren't deep enough at 7 inches for full root development. I wanted at least 12 inches and went off hunting. I visited Lowes and Home Depot tonight, and got a lot of what I needed. Waiting on some other pieces, and I need to order some bits online and wait for those. Hope to have this in operation about this time next week, after working out the bugs.

So first - the fogging unit. It is an aeromist 3 kit, with three 20mm transducers, available on ebay, or directly here - AEROMIST 3 HEAD AEROPONIC FOGGER KIT WITH FOGGER, FLOAT AND EXTRA DISC - SunflowerSupplies.com

As to the res. I searched out all the available hydro reservoirs, but did not find what I was looking for. Checked out every Rubbermaid container and storage tote I could find. I found something pretty close to the ideal I was looking for, at Lowes. Here ya go - a heavy duty thick black plastic 27 gallon storage container with a 400 pound load rating - J. Terence Thompson at Lowe's: 27-Gallon Snap Lid Tote It measures 30.75 inches long by 20.4 wide by 14 deep.

Now the picture shows the model Home Depot is selling - however, I came across several negative reviews of it, as apparently the bottom is very weak and will crack or break. The one at Lowes is a couple of bucks more at $14.98, but it has a reinforced bottom and will actually handle 400 lbs. Also, the top on the Lowes unit has a square grid pattern, featuring evenly spaced 3 inch squares, a perfect template for laying out 3 inch pots, if you wanted to go "Aquamist" and fit 24 plants in there.

Was going to order a black 5 gallon pail from US plastics for the fog chamber, but found Lowes had their version in oqaque gray, so I went with that. I'll be using 1 1/2 inch PVC pipe and fittings for the manifold.

Should be receiving the Aeromist unit tomorrow, and will be piecing this together over the next few days. Will post some pics as it comes together.

nilknarf420

Interesting,


I am always up to try new things. I am working with a NFT system right now, but have been interested in aeroponics since seeing pictures of results.

__________________
We are all walking, talking stardust this cosmos become AWAKE, looking back at itself . .

Carl Sagan

cavadge

Being a tinkerer seems to be in my nature. That what I'm messing with turns out to be anything is another story. Be posting some pics shortly, but in the meantime...

Received the fogger/mister yesterday. Partially filled a 5 gal pail, set the unit it it's float, and plugged it in. The float unit keeps the fogger about 1 1/2 inches below the water surface. Noted some bubbling, and a cheesy red LED, and gobs of fog. It starts and stops almost immediately. The fog just sits in the bucket unless you blow on it. Then it's all over the place. I found no matter how hard I blew the mist just kept coming. Establishing the right airflow rate inside the system will be key. After drying the unit off, dug out some black enamel model paint, and covered the LED. Don't need effects lighting inside the res.

The fogger is completely sealed, including the power cord, which is about 10m (30 feet) long. The transformer is also sealed. The spare transducer disc package showed "for DK-3 Mist Maker". So this morning I googled it. I knew these are made in China, and they can be sourced from Wholesale-China Wholesale-Buy Wholesale Products from Chinese Wholesalers on China Made, for $27 US FOB min qty 100 pcs. Meaning you need to be a wholesaler, buy at least 100 pieces to get that price, and shipping is your problem. The manufacturer is Techsin Electronic Co, and they've been making these for 20 years. They are intended for pond displays, stage effects and greenhouse use.

I also found numerous sources for these, and they can be had a little cheaper than what I paid. I am digging this monster unit, (scroll down from the link), a 12 head 6.5 litre/hour fogger --> Ultrasonic Water Fogger-The Mist Maker , That could supply a significant number of plants.

In other news, I changed my plans somewhat. I've decided to keep my moms in the Rainforest for the short term, anyway. They were moved into a tent, and are liking the newfound space and light. Money is another consideration (isn't it always?).

Am now looking at starting a grow with this system instead. The two totes will be put into a 4X4 Sun Hut, planted with rooted clones, and we'll see what happens. These totes could just as easily fit into some closets.

Not sure how many plants to put in there. Could fit up to 24 three inch pots in each tote, that's 48 plants in that little space. Seemorebudz, anyone?

Enough babbling. Pics tell the story better.

cavadge

First the disclaimer - my photog skills are lame.

The fogger - this is what comes in the box - a float, fogging head, transformer, spare fuse and replacement transducer discs with installation tool.



The transformer supplies 24 volts AC at 4.17 amps, hence the 5 amp fuse. The transformer only uses 24 watts of power.



More to come...

Here is the fogging head sitting in it's float in a 5 gal pail.



And here it is in action. As mentioned, the fog mostly lays in the bucket. I blew into the bucket and stepped back to snap this pic.

Attached Thumbnails

     

 

cavadge

And now, what I came up with in the way of a grow chamber/res. Note the nice arrangement of three inch squares in the lid.



It was difficult getting a good shot of the reinforcing ribs in the container, but this gives you the idea.



So now the big question. Do I plant 24 sites in each tote?



Or 12?



More to come as I piece this together.

[IMG]

Attached Thumbnails

     

 

Them

__________________

cavadge

I was told by the supplier that one three head unit would be more than adequate for the area of the two containers I plan to use. Took his word for it, but have a lot of testing and experimenting to do. Going to use clear covers initially to be able to see how the fog is being circulated.

If it isn't enough then I need to rethink this project. Adding more units, or a bigger unit ups the cost a fair bit. I've been trying to do this as cheaply as possible, without cutting any corners.

After a lot of back and forth, I'm going to simplify things and eliminate the fog chamber (ie the 5 gallon pail). The container is certainly big enough to put the fogger in; it's then just a matter or circulating the fog between the two containers. Getting rid of the chamber simplifies the plumbing quite a bit.

However, this puts the fan in the path of the fog. To my surprise, I discovered that those little muffin fans are made in a waterproof version. Adda is one European company that makes them - Mouser Electronics stocks them. Unfortunately, the smallest fan is a 60mm 19cfm model, a little too much for this application. Sunon also makes them, but it appears only on a special order basis. Not sure how long a regular fan might last in that environment. As fan size determines plumbing size I'm trying to nail that down. Too much airflow will cause the fog to dissipate too quickly, and not enough will keep it from reaching all the plants. A variable speed fan would help me establish what works best. More research to do...

vpur

Might be a good cloner

__________________

cavadge

One container would be a good candidate for that. Am considering how to make that work. A single transducer head would produce enough fog for a container this size.

On the supplier's home page is a photo of a guy pruning his grow. Apparently this guy uses a fogger to germinate his seeds, as well as for propagation and growing. He just hangs a very fine net just below the surface of the lid, which has many small holes, and drops a seed into each hole. The fog germinates the seeds, and once the seedlings are ready to plant, he just removes the lid, cuts the screen around each plant's root system, and transplants them. Then he just hangs a new net and starts all over.

Supposedly this three head unit could supply up to three of these containers, and messing around yesterday I see that I could indeed fit three of these together in a 4x4 space. In an 8X8 room, I can see up to 6 of these containers, taking up a little over 5X5 space. If you planted every other square on the grid that would account for 72 plants; planting each square allows for 144 plants. Doesn't leave much room, though. I may need to consider making my own top. And I'm always looking for new container candidates.

I'm using two containers for this experiment. They will be interconnected - at the bottom, to maintain an even level of nute solution between them, and two pipes at root zone height, using 1 1/2 inch PVC pipe and fittings to circulate the fog in a loop. A 40 mm fan will keep things in motion.

Re: the fan - I researched this further. I was concerned about the fog causing premature failure of your typical PC cooling type fan. I did find IP rated fans, meaning dust proof and waterproof, but nothing smaller than 60 mm and 13 cfm, which is too much for this application. However, Orion Fans indicates that their fans, like any other out there, are tested to 95% RH and unless they are directly exposed to water spray will work fine, as the bearings are sealed and nothing exposed can corrode. So bottom line is any fan should work - we shall see how well over the long haul. Found a nice Sunon 40mm fan with Vapo bearings, 12 volts, 0.9W, 7 cfm, on sale for $6, and snagged a speed controller, power supply and rubber mounts for another $17. This will allow me to establish the optimal air flow for best results. As the fan will be mounted to the res or piping, rubber mounts will help minimize vibration. The size of these containers makes them an excellent echo chamber.

Should see some progress this week. Not drilling any holes until I have all the pieces at hand. More to come.