Allglad

Good to have ya come check the thread...

...I am look'n for some input on how to set layers of fert. so that I would not have to make as many trips to my plants, but have no experience grow'n Auto Flowering/Dwarf strains outside. I plan on going with solid/non-liquid ferts.

If I do put down layers of fert. how deep should I put my transition from veg. to bloom? How deep should I put my bloom ferts?

Suggestions would be great.

\ooo/

Omar

You have to keep in mind first the overall basics of growing in general:
The smaller the plant, the less they eat, the smaller the plant, the less they drink, and then specific strain dietary issues.........ie: Some things heavy feeders, some things lighter feeders.

Those aspects also have to be accompanied by planting time and complete cycle(round).....ie: will be in and out probably 70-80 days..(same applies to mini's (late planted smaller plants, which I am extremely well versed and have done many times, may places, many seasons....)

Also related to light conditions, and plot/prep conditions.....ie: If well prepped plot and heavier sun, they will, accompanying the above eat and drink more.....)

Which then also feeds off how are you going to get them in (dietary issues).....ie: Are you going to pre veg/ sex and plant outside?....are you going to go straight out from germ or seedlings, etc....(both of which would cut down your outdoor veg time.....)

Also keep in mind different ingredients and nutes will break down at different levels/time frames (I have to re read your choice and applications), but, as above, your dealing with minimal veg time, and of course lower levels (don't prep like you would for larger plants.......only a fraction required......)

Example: My runs this year will be basically organics, more geared towards flowering but some veg mixed in, and spot pre treated maybe 3 weeks in advance, and lightly at that.....(again, smaller plants, etc....you don't want to burn the fuck out of them depending on what your using......)

If decent native location and soil, might just need light (very light) flowering mix (which, depending on product, have varying levels of N.....so......)

Hole/prep and sun will also dictate yield, density, etc.....so I'd say expect slightly better yields than most running them indoors, etc...

Note: Mini's/late season smaller plants, I have done countless numbers, always successful.....recently beginning AF fem stock production for larger AF runs, but, again, dietary, a similar basic approach and concept (smaller plants, minimal veg, directly into flower), so.....

No set answer....all of the above factors and variables would determine your feedings...(and then some actually.....from strain through products through location through sun through prep and so on....)

All feed off each other to change the overview.

Note: I recently delivered a container of nutes for a locations prep....which I changed to "Nah, use 50% of that over the spot".....to eventually, "Nah....use 25% of mix"......

Smaller plant.....eats and drinks less, etc....

One should not skimp on prep of spot though (depth, soil worked)...as with many things, in many cases: Yield is in the hole.....

__________________
Henry David Thoreau:
Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.

Allglad

Ahh thanx Omar,

Sounds reasonable to have about 25 - 50% fert. That is nearly the rates that I have done my low AK's.

How about placement depths for the fert though? Should I place my ferts at 25-50% depth of what I usually go with or?

Also should I go with 30"ish holes for autos or can I cut that back to 15 or?

I have yet to see my roots for my AK's, but the big one is in a 5 gal pot and the little one is in a 1.5 gal. I am anxious to see if the 5 gal. was needed and if 1.5 gal was to small. Readings lead me to think 5 would not be needed, but boy if it were not flowering under veg lighting so well I would think it to be a "normal" strain, while 1.5 seemed to be generally what is acceptable. That 1.5 gal maybe a minimum though?? I dont know these are only my 2nd auto's.

Good to have you all drop by.
\ooo/

Omar

Well, again.....depends what your using, and another aspect is of course usage in itself and any remaining long after plants are gone....(again....minimal time in ground....coupled with less need, and so on....)
I think more of a minimum....and, as always, yield lies in your hole/container-medium, etc....

One researching the AF's will find a large amount of varying results from people....all of which (again, like any strain) goes back to lighting, from CFL's to outdoors, to container size (2 liters on up through 3+ gallons)

I highlighted above...."need".........as with all outdoors, any location in world, any op.....what is definition of "need".....

Have you run the 1.5 gallons indoors? (again lighting would vary), and now running out?, or 2 rounds of out (which you yourself could match results of different size containers against yield (add a 3 gallon to it......1.5/3/5.......)

I'm pretty sure you would see the difference returned in yield....(either way, something that could be shared because while quite a bit of info on AF's floating around, most is indoors, CFL's and so on....much less info on higher wattage and outdoor scenarios....)

"Need".......well, you've run the 1.5's, so......you know it works.....but, as above and as with everything, "More" is typically directly reflected in yield at end of the say( season .........(and I have done quite a range from no maintenance to full maintenance things over the years......)

"Less"....."Need"....seems to always provide results, but, the more one does of any number of things, results in a direct return in yield.......

With numbers.....it adds up (a gram more for a certain action....2 grams more for another.....5 more for different placement, etc....which gets multiplied dramatically depending on ones numbers.........so...........)

Holes.....30/15.....not sure if talking width, depth, etc....I'd say do what you can reasonably do.....and expect it to again be a direct reflection on yield, etc (but either of those numbers seem fine....but again depends on location your working....both much different from a 1.5 gallon....so I've done different approaches for mini's.....and always trying new ones...all seem to work, but I am undecided about yield figures.....can till entire spot(s).....can dig individuals...can prep each hole (nutes)...can prep entire space and then dig or drill, etc.......I usually choose what is the most effective with the least amount of effort (all should, called efficiency...), all coupled with site specifics...(soft black, clay, sand, and so on and so on....

Many times I've done them in halfway decent spots (read native soil) and merely a hit of nutes, and hole the size of,say...a 20-32oz container.....so, again, depends on soil...(Last season end of season was doing about 100 plantings in less than an hour...quick,easy, simple, etc.......depends on the location (security, access, time spent and risk there, etc.........ie: If you can settle in and do everything you want to safely...by all means, but most operate under a compromise of all factors involved, etc.....)

Other times have drilled (one man powered auger....quick, easy but loud.....), other times tilled entire patches....so......again....approach is basically as always: What you can, when you can, where you can, and how you can.....

The more you do, the more is returned (yield, weight).....

Edit: Going back to diet.....layers...veg/flower.....
That depends on what your doing...e they going their entire lifespan in the hole?...are you pre vegging indoors?.......are you pre vegging outside and moving them.....will they be in the holes for flowering only?, a portion of veg?, and so on....regardless....veg requirements will be low (don't forget, extremely small plants.......with minimal needs, and then right into flower......so.....go light, go easy........if dealing with good location (soil)...could even put them in and not need anything (I've done that many times with larger plants.....never added anything basically)....so...

You understand the overview then apply to your own situation taking into consideration your specific variables...

This season, personally, (I am doing more than have been lately), just going to hit spots with a top feed, more towards flowering, some dig, some not until planting, and leave it until used/planted (2-3 weeks) and sure will be enough/fine........(I've also done that on larger areas with big ones......ie: just hitting all spaces between them with top feed at points in season.....paths between them, spaces between them....rains will do the rest (which again depends on area...you could be in area with zero rainfall and going irrigation, which you would want it worked in and under when you prepped spot...

__________________
Henry David Thoreau:
Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.

Allglad

Nice info on factoring in situations.

Yes I have done both of my runs indoors my first was Diesel Ryder and now the 2 AK's. This thread is for my planned outdoor grow. With most germed a little at home and try some popped on site.

As far as my preping I also like to test methods from hole size etc, but dont want to do way to much or way to little. eg. why dig a 30 x 30 x 30" hole when it may only use 15"? I dont mind any form of preping..as its fun, but I dont have the time to dig way more than needed. Course I consider roots, boulders...etc that cant be worked around.. in prep'n holes (not all holes can be square due to nature and that I am not perfect. A general min and max hole # could help with that. Also with some plots I plan to do more circular holes to see if square or circular works better, but dont have an idea what is to much and to little there.

On the fert layers. Yea I would have to alter amounts depending if they are fresh plants or if they have been veg'd at home, but as with hole size a general min and max's a min and max guideline would give me some place to start testing how deep to start layering for flowering...etc..etc

I appreciate the time you have take'n to respond Omar.

Omar

Always have to.......almost nothing cut and dry in these matters. Single detail can lean something either way....
Got it.

Have been on this lately and working on some AF things, and, seems that if starting them in for out, etc, probably want to use larger containers instead of small ones, as limited time and want absolutely no restrictions whatsoever, as little or no recovery time, etc.....(Normally, with most plants I give them about 10 days more or less from seed (close under 1k's in larger peat pellets), and then they go out, great roots, grab quick and make up for it quick also...)....discussions with many people running AF's has seemed to gravitate towards starting them in larger instead....(I originally wondered if I could get maybe 140-20 days out of them in the pellets, but, don't want to commit a larger number and run when any questions, etc.(Mini's it works fine, but, not bound by timetable AF's are...ie: fixed...)

Another general consensus is expect a little more size and yield if out and good prep than in....(I thought and had some discussions with people about reduced light being an issue (indoors vs. out...# of hours daily),and, have yet to see any "terrible" results from outside....

Have also seen quite a bit noted regarding straight in ground, and, have yet to really see anybody who has run them out come back with anything truly negative regarding AF's out....

Anyway...
Got it. My admiration to a man who considers this work fun ..(I do for the most part.....most don't and see as a burden...)

I think goes back to what is easiest and quickest (I drill...augers.....12"x 36" in almost any soil and in about 10-30 seconds depending on what I'm working with (I think 36", if not, then 30") I'd say 3 x 3 might be overkill( which goes back to just tilling an area, as tighter spacing and such....mini's I run less than 1 per sq. f. majority of the time, and AF's I'll do similar to 1 per, depending..

If I had to dig, myself, tomorrow (no drill or tiller) I'd probably do like 8" x 12"'s....12" 12"'s.....if working with good soil will of course grow right into it for the most part....so,another factor to consider.....(and as such, all in all, tilling if possible seems most effieicnt and beneficial.....)

Also a school of thought not deeper than 2' or so necessary, which for larger ones I would not agree with but smaller absolutely........
See the problem with nutes and dosage out is of course when talking any kind or time release (chem or organic...), they all have different rates at which they break down, some fast (like..guano....etc) some not....and same applying to anything pelletized, etc (I've read a lot about their release and such and seems with a lot of products your break down on, say, a 10-10-10 is not actually breaking down as such....)

Could also, as earlier, start working on and prep spot for upcoming weeks, which would probably be more beneficial...efficient, etc.....(nutes a chance to start breaking down for immediate availability, animals a chance to mess around with it, etc.....)

In the end...yield is in your hole (light, strain, etc...but holes always significant), so, the more you can do the better but, yeah, 30" x 30" probably overkill.....(and if many, then just tilled altogether, etc...)

I'm not even sure layering necessary....don't forget....they're a quick in and out...(nutes will remain long after plant is gone....long after.......
No problem man.... this is about where my train of thought is laying these days working on a lot of similar things, so......always like to think out loud when working on things..

__________________
Henry David Thoreau:
Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.

Allglad

Cool stuff!!

Yea good info. I am really apprecate'n my results with my dwarfs. The Diesel was a mistake that mutated and snunted, she was an ugly plant, but it is one of my best ever smokes!! ...as for the AK's well they look and smell awesome!!! ...verrrry anxious to chop them.

I used to be in the camp that auto flowering is an expensive type of grow. That has changed. Even though I am not a pro at pollinating I will do so with my autos indoors. I cant see any reason why I cant get good at make'n auto seeds & make'n seeds will drop my cost. Its so easy to find space for dwarfs, hopefully I can always keep a few go'n.

I guess I will try different levels of nutes just below the veg level of my babies. I may try adding some low low doses of flowering nutes before leaving them to do their thing. I will try out different methods of nute'n.

Omar

Haven't heard too many negative things about either of them....AK reports all good, and outdoor ones even better..(size, yield)...Diesel?, well, maybe if you grew out more would have seen more variation I'm sure, etc....

I was planning on a fem AF (stock) project.....several though have commented straight M/F might produce better stock...but, really doesn't suit my use(s).......(when you start running larger, more tighter spaced plots....it's basically impossible to get in there to sex (learned that a long time ago....spacing tight utilizes every sq. inch....when talking as small as a 10 x 10....getting to 20 x 20's and larger, can't get in there....so...for my purposes, fems always more desirable.....)

I'm actually behind schedule on my AF things, but, hope to have stock ready next May and just finishing off this year going mini........
I wouldn't read too much into it.....you could plant a patch just for stock outdoors, do nothing, and have stock...(nature done it for millions of years .....

Expenses regarding genetics related to resources.......no matter what your working with.....ie: A single pack of seeds can be worked into 10,000 clones in 6 months or so.....single pack of AF seeds might be able to produce 5,000+/- seed in one round (80 days, whatever)......been talking to many about results from making stock....as above, I guess it all depends on method(s), approach.....ie: indoors, smaller pots, CFL's through to outdoors, prepped spot, etc....have heard up to 1,000 per plant.....as little as 200 per plant.....

I've always preferred just to buy stock, but, I think they are a little too expensive, which leaves me no choice but to make it myself (not a problem, just adds time to my schedule.....) I think I calculated if bought would need more than $125,000 in stock (which is ridiculous......) Think it a mistake of breeders actually.....(instead of spending $50,000+, I'll just spend $1,000.....etc...)

Yeah...Mini's in any way , shape, or form (I include AF's in that class) the way to go....quick, small, easy...just kills you on numbers to hit desired target/yields, etc....
Well, going back to the above....if you were feeding (liquid, measured) can dose more exact, but, time release and such, really unsure for the most part....so...I mean, you just have to "eye" it...(which is not really that difficult in the end with enough under your belt.....plant lets you know everything you need to know merely by a look....but that comes from number of rounds one does, etc......)

Don't forget also (many do), that outdoors, depending on where your working, is not sterile/neutral........almost all native soil will have some levels currently....and some spots might even be able to carry them without no supplemental nutes (I've done a lot of rich spots, etc...)

But, yeah, as above...many ways to approach (prep before, prep far before, if access with liquid could feed weekly, etc...) a lot depends on spot and access....and, again, smaller plants, eat less, done quicker, etc, so, light hits should be fine....

Of course always efficiency is target, so, incorporate that also into approach....(not sure what and where your doing...don't want to know but anything with access issues, you always want to do anything possible to reduce a trip....but, sounds like you might only be doing a couple, and in a more controlled situation...so....

Smaller, quicker......no need to hit them heavy.....

Good luck....

__________________
Henry David Thoreau:
Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.

Allglad

wondering if total darkness is needed for when lights are off with this.

I am thinking if required it could give better results?

Allglad

Hope'n to hear if total darkness is required autos.

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