BaadPuTthyKat

Hi guys & gals...

Here's a good argument of the pro's & con's of each, from the perspective of the finished product...think lettuce, cucumbers...this is the perspective which it has been taken from, but is very informative & well balanced, IMHO..Culled from the WWW...

There is a huge popular debate about the value of "organic"
fertilizers and methods, & many people would like to apply
"organics" to hydroponics. Currently accepted organic fertilizer
components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert
the "organic" materials into a useable form for plants.
In hydroponics we provide the minerals required for plant growth
directly, completely eliminating the need for soil and soilorganisms.
The result is much higher growth rates, yields and even
crop quality than organic methods can achieve. This is not what
some people want to hear, but it is the simple scientific truth - and
practically all scientists and educators in the fields of agriculture
and chemistry know it and will be the first to agree. In fact, the
kinds of materials which are permitted for use under "organic"
regulations are not of sufficient purity to be used for hydroponic
culture.
With this in mind it's important to recognize the reasons that
"organically" grown produce is gaining such popularity.
Consumers want to buy produce which is not tainted with
hazardous chemicals or poisons. There is an increasing public
demand for methods which are gentle on our delicate planet and
which don't harm the soil, water or ecosystems. Hydroponic
farming methods fit properly into this system of values if used
appropriately. Hydroponics protects soil because it doesn't use soil.
Less water is required for hydroponic culture and consequently
more food can be cultivated with less water. The fertilizers we use
for hydroponics are ultra-pure and leave no residue in the
cultivated fruits and vegetables. Since hydroponic technologies are
more efficient than soil methods, more people can be fed with less
area and ecological impact.
THE ORGANIC HYDROPONIC DEBATE OPENING
PANDORA'S BOX
As seen in the Growing Edge Magazine
During the 1980’s, Americans increasingly became more healthconscious.
Cholesterol was ruled out and exercise became a part of
our daily routines. Today this still holds true, but even more so.
What we put into our bodies is carefully scrutinized, even our
fruits and vegetables, which has made “organic” a buzzword of the
‘90s. People are buying organic skin care products, “organic
shampoos” and even "organic clothing”. Everybody seems to want
“organic” and hydroponic growers are quite aware of this. Why,
then, are there hardly any "Certified Organic hydroponic growers”
in the United States? Many go through a great deal of trouble to
grow their crops "organically," but even though they follow most
guidelines, they still cannot get the recognition or certification
necessary to sell their produce to most restaurants or natural food
stores as “organic”. What is it that is separating organic from
hydroponic methods? Why can't these two technologies work
together under today's American states' certification guidelines?
WHAT'S ORGANIC, WHAT'S NOT?
We would think that this is an easy question to answer, but it isn't.
In the United States there are numerous different definitions of
"organic", many of which differ significantly. Each state has its
own regulations for labeling produce as “organic". Additionally,
there are 36 non-governmental organizations which can certify"
produce as organic. For example, California growers who wish to
sell their produce as "organic" must register with the California
Department of Food and Agriculture and pass their inspection.
However, California grower's can also obtain certification through
the California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF), which actually
has higher standards for organic than the state has.
The CCOF certification is optional, but produce with California
state registration and CCOF certification may be offered for sale
within the state as "certified organic" If the grower chooses not to
seek CCOF certification, the produce can be offered for sale in
California as "organic," but not "certified organic”. Any produce
grown outside of the United States can be sold as "certified
organic" in the country if one of the 36 non-governmental
organizations certifies it. In fact, produce from any state can be
granted certification from one of the non-governmental
organizations, even if it does not meet the organic standards for the
state in which it is being sold. Pretty confusing!
What this all means is that the "organic" label is a matter of
bureaucratic definitions, which can vary from state to state, and
country to country.
In order to bring some kind of standard into play, the U.S.
Department of Agriculture (USDA) – along with state government
regulators, non-governmental certifiers, consumers, industry
interest groups, food processors and various special interest groups
– is writing a federally mandated set of "organic" standards. No
state will be able to apply more stringent standards than those of
the federal. Sometime this spring, the federal standards will be
released for a 90 day comment and review period, and by the end
of 1996 or early 1997, these standards will become law, or
"Frankenlaw"; we'll have to wait and see.
The basic objectives of "organic" practice include the following:
• Avoidance of pesticides, by use of natural pest controls (also
applied by many hydroponics growers).
• Caring for soil by recording nutrients and composting, and
• Moderation of nutrient application with reliance on the buffer
action of humus derived from compost.
Soilless hydroponic cultivation moderates nutrient supply by the
more exact measurements of soluble nutrient formulations, mixed
to meet the optimum requirements of each plant species and
growth phase. Many consumers select "organic" produce,
believing that this is the only way to be assured of pesticide-free
non—hazardous food. While "organic" farming methods do
produce crops generally superior to and safer than those grown by
agri-business practices, modern hydroponic techniques can put
forth equally safe food that in many cases offers advances in
nutrition and taste over their soil-grown “organic” counterparts.
But to the consumer, it's the label that counts, so an increasing
number of growers throughout the United States are struggling to
get organic certification in any way, shape or form.
Meanwhile, this whole situation poses an enormous dilemma to
hydroponic growers who also want organic recognition for their
produce. The primary problem for organic hydroponic growers is
in the formulation of the soilless nutrient solution. A secondary
issue, which concerns the federal regulators, is in the way used
hydroponic nutrient and media such as rockwool are disposed of.
Since "organic" is to a large extent a farming philosophy in support
of a healthy environment, the federal concern is entirely
reasonable.
Although the latter factor has no bearing on the quality and safety
of the produce itself, the impact upon the planet is a real driving
force behind the issue of "organic" farming. If hydroponic growers
can find a way to completely recycle exhausted water, nutrients
and media, then the argument in favor of "organic-hydroponic
certification" becomes much stronger, but there's still the issue of
formulating a satisfactory organic hydroponic nutrient mix.
Organic nutrient regulations prohibit the use of many mineral salts
and highly refined substances, including food and pharmaceutical
grade ingredients that are extremely important for successful
hydroponic nutrient formulation.
Only unrefined minerals can be used on "organic" crops and these
often don't dissolve well or contain quantities of impurities, some
of which are even relatively toxic but are "natural” and therefore
“okay”, according to organic standards. For example, mined
phosphate may contain excessive amounts of fluoride, good for
teeth in very small quantities, but harmful to humans in excess.
Mined phosphate also can contain small amounts of radioactive
elements such as radium, which releases radon, also not good for
human health. Chlorides, too, are permitted for organic cultivation
but though they are naturally mined, they can be bad for both
plants and soil, especially if used in excess. Some soils used by
organic farmers contain such toxic elements as selenium, which
can accumulate in the plant tissues and produce. Amazing, isn't it?
When refined, any impurities or toxicities such as those listed
above are removed, but refined minerals make for non-organic
produce. Blood meal, bone meal, fish meal and manures pose
almost no potential safety hazards, but they don't dissolve very
well; they must be broken down through microbial action in the
soil and therefore don't work well in hydroponic applications.
There is also a problem that sometimes arises when using manures.
The Western Fertilizer Handbook, an important guide for
American farmers, points out that many gastro-intestinal illnesses
can he traced back to manures used on organically gown crops. In
the summer of 1995, a serious outbreak of salmonella poisoning
resulted from an organic cantaloupe crop growing in soil fertilized
with fresh chicken manure. The rinds of the melons had become
contaminated and the bacteria caused serious intestinal illness for
many consumers.
Another point that can be made is that strict vegetarians or animal
rights activists may be offended by the use of blood, bone, horn,
hoof and feather meals to grow their food, but these are primary
nutrient sources for organic farmers.
As you can see, this issue Is very complex and there are many
points of view. Essentially though, "organic" farming is part
philosophy and part methodology, but unfortunately defined
bureaucratically.
WHAT'S HYDROPONIC; WHAT'S NOT?
If a plant is grown without soil and with a complete nutrient
solution, that's hydroponics! It can be as simple as plants glowing
in sand, gravel or rockwool with a nutrient drip, or as complex as a
complete waterculture system, such as NFT (Nutrient Film
Technique) or aeroponics.
No matter what method you use, the key to successful
hydroponics is nutrients. Hydroponic crops are raised on a
perfected mix of primary, secondary and micro-nutrients. The
formulas for different crops and environments vary, but all have
been defined from extensive experience with a wide variety of
crops growing in many different environments throughout the
world. Problems may occur where water quality is poor and where
environmental extremes of high or low temperature and humidities
place stress on crops; however, when a hydroponic facility is
properly planned and installed, the resulting crops can be
impressive. Data generated in Europe, Israel, Canada, Australia
and the United States have defined precise combinations of
minerals for a variety of crops. The data is so accurate that
required elements are specified in mS (milisiemens) and uS
(microsiemens), a system of measuring by electrical conductivity
and calculating by atomic weight.
Based on these findings, the Dutch research station at Aalsmeer
has organized nutrient solutions into three classes:
• "A" refers to formulas that have been extensively tested and can
be considered reliable.
• "B" signifies formulas that are fairly new but working quite
well; some changes can be expected before upgrading to a class
"A."
• "C" formulas are experimental; significant changes can be
anticipated before upgrading to class B or A.
Formulas are defined for a given crop growing under different
conditions. For example, elements are specified for the nutrient
reservoir, while a separate specification is made for the nutrients in
the "root environment" if growing media is used, particularly
rockwool. The root environment usually has higher concentrations
of elements since minerals will accumulate in rockwool. To test
the concentration within the media, the grower will squeeze some
nutrient out of a sample of the media, do a basic conductivity and
pH test, and sometimes send the sample to a lab for analysis. If the
concentration of elements in the media rises above the
recommended limits, the grower will have to adjust the
formulation of the nutrient in the reservoir or run a rinse through
the media to lower the nutrient concentration within the root zone.
Another formula may be defined for non-recirculating nutrient,
also called "run-to-waste," where nutrient is sent from the reservoir
on a one-way trip through rockwool onto the ground. This method
is falling into disfavor due to the pollution caused by the nutrient
run-off and discarded rockwool.
HYDROPONIC PRODUCE AND HEALTH
In 1994 a test was commissioned by an investment group to
determine the vitamin and mineral content of hydroponically
grown crops in comparison to soil grown crops, both organic and
nonorganic. Plant Research Technologies Laboratory in San Jose,
California, analyzed tomatoes and sweet peppers; those
hydroponically grown used General Hydroponics' "Flora"
nutrients. The hydroponic produce showed a significant increase in
vitamins and minerals beneficial to human health over the soilgrown
produce. This data indicates the importance of a calibrated
nutrient solution. The crops had been grown following the Dutch
recommendation for hydroponic tomatoes and sweet peppers, and
not only were they of higher nutritional value, the flavor was
reported to be outstanding.
The hydroponic crops were further analyzed to search for
chemicals on the EPA’s "priority pollutant list", of which, none
were found.
American agribusiness is beginning to apply hydroponics on a
significant scale. Large corporate facilities are showing profits and
generating high crop yields with consistent quality at facilities in
Colorado, Utah and Mexico. These installations mark an important
point for hydroponic farming in the United Stares. If the
investments prove profitable over the long term, then steady
growth is going to continue, slowly replacing many field-grown
crops in the marketplace. The British have been applying
hydroponic farming to meet consumer needs for decades. Farming
cooperatives grow tomatoes, cucumbers and salad greens on a very
large scale.
Van Heinegen Bros. produces three pounds of hydroponically
grown tomatoes per year for every man, woman and child in the
British lsles. In support of these enterprises, the British
government runs a research facility, which investigates improved
hydroponic methods, disease and pest control and new plant
varieties. The cooperation between government and farmers has
led to improved crop production, quality and profits.
Although hydroponically grown produce, while usually free of
pesticide and other chemical hazards, does not generally meet the
rather narrow definitions of "organic", it can offer superior flavor,
nutrition, appearance, freshness and she1flife. Many small
hydroponic growers are recognizing these market trends and
cashing in on the huge demand for higher quality produce. Small
growers find that gourmet restaurants and local markets are
delighted to have access to superior quality produce, whether
organically or hydroponically grown.
Since "organic" is pretty much out of the question, an increasing
number of hydroponic growers are promoting their produce as
"pesticide-free." This gives the consumer the reassurance that their
fruits and vegetables have been grown following the most
important principal of "organically” grown produce.
One consequence of this dichotomy is that the term "organic
agriculture" is declining in favor of the term "sustainable
agriculture", which applies to both organic and hydroponic
cultivation. Though many organic growers look down on
hydroponic technology, the superior quality and freshness of
locally grown hydroponic produce is in fact gaining market
acceptance. A new niche is developing for small hydroponic
growers, family farms, and even urban farms in areas that have
traditionally been served by large corporate farms far away.
The simple truth is that top quality organically raised produce can
only be grown under fairly ideal conditions and only seasonally in
most parts of the United States. This results in produce that is
expensive and frequency unavailable or shipped from afar, causing
quality to suffer.
In the "organic” model, good soil is enriched with compost, blood
meal, bone meal, manures and a host of other natural amendments.
These components break down slowly in the soil at a rate in
harmony with the plants' growth; a microbiological process is
required to make the nutrients available to the plants. These
microbes include many organisms that are all in a symbiotic
embrace with the environment and the plants. When done skillfully
in the right environment with the right crop, this is nature and
farming at its finest. But it differs sharply from the hydroponic
model, where microorganisms are unnecessary for the plants to
absorb the prepared nutrients. The nutrient absorption rate of a
hydroponically grown plant is generally much faster than that of a
soil grown plant, since in hydroponics, nutrients are instantly
soluble and available, as is essential oxygen.
Hydroponic plants are usually grown in a relatively sterile
environment, and often with precise controls, from artificial
lighting to extend growing seasons to exotic computer systems that
enable the grower to actually tailor the environment to the crop
wherein hydroponics becomes just one part of the entire system. In
this type of setup, labor is reduced, yet plant growth rates, yields
and quality increase.
Many attempts have been made to create the perfect organichydroponic
nutrient, but so far nothing matches the purified
mineral salts used in formulating hydroponic nutrient solutions.
We note that the European Economic Community (EEC) has
established the category of "mineral organic" for foods grown with
the required mineral nutrients to supplement an organic base of
nitrogen. We previously touched on the fact that United States
agricultural regulations are currently set and applied at the state
level but practically all states prohibit the use of refined ingredients
to cultivate “organic" crops; only mined minerals can be used.
Surprisingly, this precludes organic growers from using
pharmaceutical or food grade ingredients to formulate fertilizers.
This could be a safety risk, but at least mined minerals will break
down in the soil.
Hydroponic growers, on the other hand, must use refined minerals
because mined minerals dissolve poorly in solutions. As a
consequence, it is not currently practical to formulate a top-quality
"organic" fertilizer, which will work well for hydroponic crop
production, and meet U.S. standards. The Flora nutrients
developed at General Hydroponics, for example, currently meet the
EEC standards for the mineral component of the "mineral-organic"
category, but cannot be used in the United States to grow certified
"organic" produce.
A review of the standards for defining "organic" will soon be
completed by federal regulators in the U.S. Department of
Agriculture. There is some possibility that the USDA way
eventually consider the European standards, opening the door for
organic growers to use purified mineral nutrients and hydroponic
growers to cultivate organically certified produce. It is not
surprising that European regulations favor policies that promote
the cultivation of produce with superior quality and flavor.
Generally European consumers are accustomed to higher quality
foods and will not purchase flavorless produce. The myth that only
certified organically grown produce is of good quality, nutrition
and flavor has been clearly dispelled by the many successes of
hydroponic producers worldwide, but remains predominant in
public perception. This trend will most likely continue; the only
question is whether the United States will be a leader, or a
follower.
Lawrence Brooke is the president and founder of Sebastopol,
California based General Hydroponics, Inc.
Author's note: I’ve tried to describe a few of the problems
hydroponic growers face when trying to compete with "organic"
produce. I don't wish to leave readers with the impression that
there's anything wrong with organic, or that hydroponic produce is
always better. It can go either way depending upon the skill and
ethics of the farmer.
The main issue is for growers and consumers to understand that
"organic" is a matter of definitions. Sometimes the organic produce
is the best tasting and most nutritious available in the marketplace;
other times the hydroponic produce is better. In the final analysis,
organic farming has a low environmental impact on the Earth, and
this is an important point from a philosophical view. Until
hydroponic growers can find a way to recycle used water, media
and nutrients, the hydroponic method will not be equal to
"organic" in these terms. On the other hand, if a consumer is
comparing the flavor and nutrition quality of a crop, both
hydroponic and organic methods are excellent.

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buzzmobile

If ever I am tempted to try Hydroponic gardening, I will attribute it to that article. Nicely done, BTK.

BaadPuTthyKat

We could go on the discuss the combination of mycorrhizal & bacterial innoculation of hydroponic systems, or introducing hydro elements to soil..like airstones under the roots..but it stands pretty well as a reference. I can't think of much else to add Buzz..except 'Come on in, the water's lovely!'

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jerryskid

there are many organic and/or natural fertilizers that are water soluble and coule be implemented in a hydro - organic setup.
therefore ithe argument is not so much Hydro Or Organic but its Synthetic fertilizers VS Organic/Natural fertilizers. Hydroponic growth itself as we know is said to be more efficient faster way to grow plants and it can result in abnormally large yields. Thats because the majority of the time theyre using synthetic fertilizers in hydroponic systems.
Organic farming is farming that does not harm soil microbes, earthworms, farmers or consumers.
Anything that does harm is not organic - anything that doesn't do harm IS organic.
I can prove to anyone that all chemical fertilizers are radioactive (2.5/24 times background levels) and that most organic ferts are NOT radioactive (7 out of 8 radiate background levels only) - therefore, I can argue most things advertized as organic are actually organic - at least when it comes to metals.
Pest controls are similar - some harm soil microbes and some don't. The ones harming the microbes are probably harming the worms, farmers and consumers, too.
people who grow organic are not so much concerned with getting a pound per plant they are concerned with the most important thing in life ...health itself. Growing the healthiest , tastiest marijuana possible Why would you use something a million times as radioactive that has to be flushed from the plant. Also many people (including myself )argue that organically grown produce of all kinds tastes better and is ultimately healthier for you. Quality not quantity. I know of growers getting up to 2.2 pounds per 1000 W bulb with organic fertilizers as well.
when you use synthetics youre force feeding a plant.. when you grow organically the plant takes up nutrients as they need it.. would you rather be on a schedule everyday or eat when you feel like it? Further more would you rather eat/smoke produce grown with bomb making materials opposed to produce grown with elements that came from the earth or its inhabitants itself. organic fertilizers contain the same elements and nutrients. there are microbes and elements micro organisms that synthetics can NEVER provide..
Organic is the only way to GrOW any plant. IN my opinion synthetic fertilizers should be illegal for horticultural purposes. they harm the earth and every creature inhabiting it.

Jerryskid

BaadPuTthyKat

Jerry.... you're talking 8oLL0x..no offense, except to 'reasoned argument', above.

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jerryskid

say what you will my friend.. this thread isnt intended for insults and condesending rude comments.. that just proves that you have nothing educated to say .
Personally I dont care what you grow your plants with .. Its your life not mine.. you posted the thread and now youve read why people grow organic.. and the differences between the two.. the only BS is dangerous synthetic fertilizer feeding the plants and harming everything it comes into contact with.
at least I respect you in that you have a different way of doing things.. and I do not ned to use confrontational language to make my points!


Jerryskid

bobbooty

there was some study done a few years ago, i remember reading it. Heres the link to the article clicky.

More studies are needed on this, because theres other factors involved, such as when you burn the product (buds) it changes the chemical composition, and becomes something else. I suppose it would be safe to say that if you really want the safest, cleanest, most organic product, then organic is the way to go. I would imagine that if the nutrients are in fact a terrible danger to human health, they (USDA?) or similar, would ban the use/sale of the product in the US.

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BaadPuTthyKat

3lbs of tomatoes for every man woman & child are grow hydroponically for the supermarkets here, every week. These systems are in use commercially all over the world, and Jerryskid..you plainly hadn't even read the post, which you might otherwise have responded to the points made in it. Balanced ones, industry tested & govt certified. Global aspects of the definitions of organic, etc , etc. I treated your post with the same contempt with which you showed for the complexity of the issue. Where, by the way, is your "proof", Jerry? One article about Dr Hornby's research, who's business it is to sell the organic stuff, BTW, does not make proof. If it were true, the same would be occurring in many other plants grown, for example, with GH's Flora Nova. NO one would use them. Oh....hang on a minute....NASA use them. So do 1/2 the world. Thats because they are checked independantly, & found to be safe.

There have indeed been mountains of studies done, thanks for the link Bobbooty..Since that time hydroponics has been accepted as safe, within particular parameters, just like organics is now being used more broadly too. The good thing for the enviroment is that both methods are generally pesticide free, and do not contaminate the water table. This is a huge step forward from so called 'modern' farming methods, which have been the enviromental disaster... Hydroponics is what can feed the nations which suffer from drought, as it is very efficient at water use. Slagging it off as Jerry did is simply, well, unbalanced.

As with all living things, the quality of nutrition will largely determine the health of the organism, plant or animal. With food quality mineral composition, seaweed ferts, etc., I'd say your average high street fast food outlet exposes you to far greater health hazards than hydroponic bud, IMO... Don't get alarmed folks, the 'study' is aimed to get you growers to buy more 5hit, that you have little idea of the contents of, so Dr Hornby can get very very rich, by blackmail instead of a fair price. Aye.

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KiwiFliHi

Thats a great article Kat Sometimes the term 'organic' grates on me. Due to the whole GE issue organic is the word popping out of everyones mouth, and popping up on supermarket shelves at mind boggling prices.....

There seems a lot of conjecture, confusion and downright ignorance over whats organic, whats genetically modifed and whats good/bad for you.

Maybe its more how the methods are applied rather than the methods themselves that are difference

Kiwi

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Vicarious existance is a fucking waste of time W. Axl Rose

No, I'll shoot the cook, my car is parked out back anyway Once Upon a Time in Mexico

HYDROPONIC LINKS what is hydroponics by 'San managing nutes (a) by StOney managing nutes (b) by StOney managing ph by 'San more great ph stuff by 'Kat ph chart by StOney

Beener

Well done Kat...though my eyeballs are burning from the read

I also respectably disagree with many of the comments made pertaining to organics. First of all, there are mounds of cases where terrible eco damage has been done by run off from organic farms to near by streams and springs.

There are also arguements that can be made about heavy metal contents of many naturally occuring organic nutrients (Guanos, rock dusts, etc.). On top of this, there are many inorganic nutrient additives, that would be normally considered as organic, but for the fact that it was "produced" by man, rather than time.... Regardless of the very same end result.

I've found a few different levels of organic believers. From the scientific, to the purist. I've also found that the scientific and puriest communities, differ greatly on their opinions.

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Beener