penguin

Pretty much. I have been reading up on some of the more recent work being done to unravel cryptochrome/phytochrome interactions, so I understand far less about photomorphogenesis than was previously the case . I do know that the photoreceptors have very low action and saturation energies. So reasonable B/R and R/FR ratios at low energies would seem to be sufficient.

Good PAR efficiency is better than bad PAR efficiency, but not all PAR watts are created equal. Poor Lumen is just a nice photon trapped in a bad neighborhood. At least for now, I am kind of looking for something that lines up on chlorophylls. Delta paid some attention to the carotenoids, but I don't know how important that really is.

I have to spend more quality time with Tazawa.


penguin

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sientbob

The spectral power distributions provided by many manufacturers may have been produced using 10 nanometre increments or more on their spectroradiometer. The result is what would seem to be a smoother (fuller spectrum) power distribution than the lamp actually has. This is because the gases or phosphurs used to actually give off the light have very narrow spikes at specific wavelengths. So we should be wary of this, and not be fooled by the smooth SPD curves supplied by many manufacturers. Basically anything with a gentle curve is misleading.

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Qwiz

Thanks all, very cool information. Love the thread! Nice work!
Qwiz

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Beener

Well I finally got my Super Actinic R bulbs. I have 6ea. 4', 40W bulbs total. I was going to order the 75W 24" bulbs until I priced the VOH fixtures. Absolutely ridiculous. I'm running 4 of the SA bulbs with a 400W MH. I plan on adding the other two when the clones take more space.

The light from these bulbs is pretty cool. After you've worked around them for a little while, everything looks yellow when you return to regular lighting.
I've been pretty stoked about these bulbs since I saw that SPD chart.

Is there a timing issue for addressing Chlorophyll-a/b, phycoerythrin, and phycocianin?

That's to say, would a bulb like the Super Actinic R which sits right between 420/450nm (chlorophyll-a&b and B-Carotene)

and a bulb like the Hortilux HPS that has an excellent punch at 560nm (phycoerythrin)

be better to run together throughout an entire grow? Obviously addressing 620nm would be something you would want to do.

This must be a victim of what your talking about. I'm not familiar with this bulb.

I have the bulbs I mentioned above. I'm looking into picking up a warm MH. Should a bulb that has good energy @ the 620nm area be what I'm looking for? Then run them all?

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Beener

penguin

Phycocyanin and phycoerythrin ("phycobilins") are not present in terrestrial plants. They are found in cyanobactieria and blue-green algae. I have tried to persuade someone to engineer us some chimeric that has these pigments, but it doesn't seem likely.

It is true that a lot of hort HPS seem like they are designed specifically for these pigments.

I think the "perfect" spectral distribution for flowering would follow the photosynthetic action curve exactly, at saturation intensity.



Looks like the only way we are going to solve this problem is to shell out for a spectroradiometer and go around to the hydro stores testing lamps. How's your HC.com R&D budget?

Seriously, we should lobby AN to research lamps & publish data. Their growfaq contains pretty good info about lighting, right up to the lamp recommendation section, which consists entirely of manufacturer-supplied, uninformative blurbs. If they have chromatographs in house, a spectroradiometer should be no big deal. This would be a tremendous service to indoor growers.


penguin

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Beener

Excuse me for asking a question that seems to have an obvious answer, but I need to understand it more clearly. So just to be sure of what I think you're saying here. Is it your opinion that the "entire" photosynthetic action curve should be covered(as much as possible) during flowering? That's to say...Running the Super Actinic R bulbs throughout the "entire" grow would be advantageous?

It would seem to make sense. But then again, I need to make sure I'm digesting this correctly. If this was the case, then using a combination of lights to achieve saturation intensity across the PAC would essentially make the lumen an unecessary value.

We then would want to use bulbs that are diversified in spectrum, but also highly efficient in the amount plant usable light to conserve energy consumption. Any light energy beyond the PAC is obviously wasted.

Theoretically, back filling empty light energy ranges that are not covered by our HPS, could make a 400W hps more efficient than a 600W HPS (of the same model) being ran as a stand alone light.

Essentially, we could chose a "base" (lower wattage) HPS. Then add extra lighting with the goal of addressing as much of the PAC @ saturation as possible.

So, say we Started with a base 400W light of known SPD. IF...big "IF"...we could efficiently cover the PAC with...say...another added 300W's. We could have a much more efficient lighting sys. @ 700W total, than a stand alone 1000W bulb. Regardless of lumens.

I realize the task would be monumental, but is this the right direction. It would seem to make clear sense. That's what worries me

<EDIT> I want to mention that these Super Actinic R bulbs seem to be making quite an impact on my clones. Being tube lights, I can run them within a 1/2" of my plants.

I have 2 bulbs ea., running on the outsides of my clone rows @ 1/4" to 1/2" away. My MH is @ 6" above the clones. The plants are actually bending mostly towards the Actinics. It's very interesting to see. I've turned them all to see if they pull back the other way. I'll need to start posting some pics soon.

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Beener

penguin

That's my current thinking.



Saturating all of the pigments involved in Photosystem I and Photosystem II seems like the best way to max out photosynthesis. The thing to avoid would seem to be stimulating cryptochrome (blue) and phytochrome (red, far red) in ratios that are counterproductive.


the lumen is not only unecessary, it is positively misleading.



Not really regardless of lumens, but because of lumens. Extreme case: low pressure sodium lamps are nearly monochromatic at 589nm and therefore have very high luminous efficiency (~210 lm/w). They suck for plant growth.

The higher the luminous efficiency of an HPS lamp, the more it's SPD resembles LPS, and the worse it is for plant growth. So a well-designed spectrum could easily achieve superior results using lower wattage.

It would be really nice if the hort lamp manufacturers realized this.


Check out the attachment.



penguin

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Beener

I'm still shopping MH bulbs. Here are some SDP's I picked up along the way. They're mostly 10K or higher. Penguin was right...this info is very easy to find if you're looking at aquarium lighting. It's the horticulturists that are getting screwed.
One. You hold the bulb and take a good bong hit. Then close your eyes, and the world spins around you.

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Beener

Beener

And a few more

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Beener

Beener

Then we have some Ballast info....This is surprisingly different in the way that all bulbs don't necessarily run "better" on what may be considered a "better ballast".

It appears that "upgrading" your ballast can actually have an adverse affect depending on the bulb itself Go figure....as if it's not a pain in the a** to find just the bulb info in the 1st place. Now ballast info is an "unpredictable" major factor. The ballasts are hard to read on the graph. They are from left to right...Standard - Pulse Start - PFO/HQI - HQI Taiwan

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Beener