HPS vs. MH vs. Mixed Spectra - Page 2

BluntBud · 02-25-2002, 06:58 AM

Spectral analysis of Sunmaster's Neutral Deluxe Metal Halide Grow Lamp.. These come is cool, neutral, and warm flavors. The warm flavor has significantly more red than this neutral lamp i'm using, and the guy at the hydro shoppe i picked this up at swears by the Warm Deluxe lamps for flowering over even an HPS, although I now figure this is pretty much bunk after all the reading I've done here. But for the purpose of comparisson, I decided to post a shot of the spectral analysis on my lamp, notice all that green light! I think when I finally have enough cash I am going to get an HPS conversion bulb, or maybe just of the 'warm' lamps instead. This lamp puts out initially 36,000 lumens, and averages out around 25k I think.

Excellent information btw people, it's nice to find actual scientific (tried&tested) growing information.. Not just 'ideas' from burnt out hippies.. I mean, they even used to smoke banana peals to try for a buzz.

Delta · 02-25-2002, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OzGrowa
Delta, amongst the growers I know, the current research is beyond consensus that HPS is the sole source necessary for both growth and flowering, further that the use of both is inefficient and counter productive to a good crop. MH lamps are inefficient and are rarely used amongst serious cultivators during flowering. To suggest otherwise is plain silly.

Well, if all the people you have around agree, then you have consensus. This doesn't mean it's true or right. Look at Hitler's SS. They all believed genocide of the Jews was the answer to their problems; a consensus ... Personally, I don't think they were right. Don't believe the hype.

Sure, I can be silly at times, but I don't conceed that HPS provides the complete spectrum you allude to or that MH is inefficient. Maybe 10 years ago I would have, but not now. I have many local grower friends, too. The big boys I know advocate mixing for the DURATION of the grow. Not swapping back and forth. Consistency.

Common sense advocates mixing. Science advocates mixing. So do many other growers that I don't know. The lighting companies come out with new bulbs every year to try and complete the spectrum. A single gas wont do it. Sorry. When I look at it, almost everyone I know, my personal experience, and everything I read advocates the opposite of what you are defending.

You have still not provided any evidence to support your point of view. All I ask for is a link and a valid spectral ananlysis of this wonderful, all encompassing, full spectrum super HPS lamp you speak of. Or, the evidence to prove that photosynthesis is more rapid with only half the usable spectrum.

Quote:

Originally posted by OzGrowa
The reference came out a couple of years ago, it was widely circulated on other systems, I was involved in the debate heavily and initially argued your point, only after considerable time spent with this paper was I convinced , check Uncle Bens link-o-rama on another system as he updates it there, it has the experiment link in it (CW,OG). HPS lamps, and I state this again, are all that is needed and supply optimal response across the spctrum. People doing a couple of plants at home can afford to play around with two types of light source and yes they will get an effect, usually as they have added more lumens.

Try over 80k. Closets are for experiments.

Noone is saying HPS lamps can't grow a plant. Albeit with stretching and other documented side effects. Why? Because the spectrum is incomplete. How can this be debatable? I'm flabbergasted.

I've been on these boards for more than a couple years, dude. About twelve years after I started growing indo without the aid of these message bases. Thank God I learned quickly that most of the info provided online and in published 'pot' books are based in stoner world. But, If there is one thing I have learned in the few years of reading them, it is that the data often presented is quantity, not quality. Lots of people say tons of the same sketchy ****. Too much THC affecting their grip on reality, I think. Primal human nature to defend a way of life that is habitual. Even when it is wrong.

While debating with UB, you should have stuck with your gut, IMO, you were right ... Just because these guys have been on the boards longer than most doesn't mean they have been growing cannabis longer. Flames and pic wars are lame and I've yet to see ANY of these guys pics that truly impress me. Quite the contrary, I think. Just push me away, that's all that ultimately happens because I will tire of the ego battle soon enough. I generally don't even stoop this low. But hey, wtf, some good will come out of this for one of us, hopefully.

Now the krusty example ... until you push 50k you haven't gone all the way around the block. The difference between many years of real world experience and pure blather. Mid sized growers are the people most resposible for the majority of the misinformation I read. Talking with no real evidence other than "well, since I dont have a link available, I'll have to use my many years of experience..." Show me the link, please. Prove it. I have one for ya, check out krusty's 60k grow in the gypsy thread on og.

I know growers of 30+ years that have never been on these boards. Ever. Probably never. Just because someone is a mod, admin, or whatever doesn't make them the most experience grower. You and me included. Computer geeks are not agronomists.

If we are informing the misinformed ...

Quote:

Originally posted by OzGrowa
UV has been proven, check Tom Flowwers updated book for references and research, its beneficial and occurs in sufficent amounts in HPS lamps due to the rare earth elements, Hortilux or otherwise. Im not adovcating a particular kind of lamp brand, either should say, that would miss my point of directing you towards the research for a better understanding of plant reponse and the action in this case of the green spectrum of light, it has been proven to keep internode space shorter, it produces the effect that the MH does in this regard but in the more efficient HPS fixture.

I think I understand plant physiology fairly well, thank you. But, I could always use a better understanding. So far, I'm not learning anything useful.

Green light. Haha. I wont even comment on that one.

UV is sort of proven. I think our definition of usable is different. Which nanometer range are you talking about? HPS doesn't really have much UV, either. At least not according to my radiometer or the spectrum analysis' I find on the 'net. I'll get around to posting more spectrum if you want. After much digging, I have the spectrum pics of most popular brands of lamp, now. Take your pick.

Could you please provide evidence or links? It would really make this debate move along much quicker.

Quote:

Originally posted by OzGrowa
Im not sure where you obtained the information from your posts, it reads as if it was trasncribed.

tasncribed, huh? Will typos make it look like it was written by me?

The references for the spectral analysis are the Internet. Lighting.com for the Hortilux Eye info and an .edu science class notes for the chlorophyll graph. I could site pages of scientific references if you want me to, call me out on that, too, and you will get the links.

Quote:

Originally posted by OzGrowa
Lastly, I have a simple explanation for this quote.

this I suggest, simply results from adding more lumens. Money that would have been much better spent on the adddition of a second HPS lamp.My responses on this issue are closed pending your reading of the paper, Ill email Uncle Ben and ask him also for it so this thread doesnt slide. Misinformation is what I aim to correct on this system.

Please don't patronize me. It was hard enough responding as it is. You have your opinions and I mine. If you want me to read something, how about providing me with enough information instead of sending me on a wild goose chase Mr. ABA.

So far, all you've proven to me, is that you're willing to call me out.

Sorry if I offended you, but it was reciprocated.

Peace.

Delta · 02-25-2002, 09:46 AM

Here's a pic of a 75k+ room ... mixed.

Delta · 02-25-2002, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phread O'Hinton
Interesting stuff, Delta. I've looked into this stuff a while back, and I came to the conclusion you cannot trust any of the "EYE Hortilux" charts- look at the plant absorption curve they provide. I've never* seen any other study, chart, or manufacturer claim huge absorption in the green range.

Anyway, I'm very* skeptical of Hortilux's claims. Not saying that the bulb's bad, or that the enhanced spectrum doesn't help; just that that particular chart is bunk.

My $.02!

Well, I do own a radiometer myself but don't use the Hortilux lamps. So, I can't validate the claim of that graph. It was used as an example, nothing more. I have other spectral graphs for different manufacturer lamps and my own rad readings from standard HPS and MH that support the combined spectrum and the graphs I have (generally).

*OzGrowa* · 02-26-2002, 12:53 AM

Delta your last post to me crossed the line, ignoring the disingeneous annd offensive SS and Jew references, your arguement yet again, ignored the issues, contradicted your earlier posts and did absolutley nothing to inform people whatsoever. Misconstruing, taking out of context and equivocating bores me.

Now you are telling me that HPS lamps are not as efficient as MH.

You then redicule my explanation of the role of green light in control of elongation.This reads very poorly and almost leads me to believe you are delibratley trying to mislead new growers.

This thread is now being closed and I will discuss your appointment with Lil Buddie and Panama.

I have emailed EYE after no reply from UB and I will reopen this thread to post the link to the study or at least the full, published reference which will put to rest just about everything you have said. I have been giving out advice and helping folks for years and have never encountered such time wasting garbage.

Regds,
OzGrowa

PS Smokinrav: The reason I yield 1.5lbs to 2 lbs pr 1000watt is because Im using a HPS lamp, not a Metal Halide during flowering

Xzoomd · 03-04-2002, 08:24 AM

I'm interested in the lighting thing.

But homework & written papers are not high on my list of "things to do"

I enjoy tokin' up and getting lost in the maze (search engines). I don't have an upper education...'cept 55 hrs. of Art related courses. Anyway I think it may be an advantage to me because I'll make a right when I shudda made a left. One day I'll dump the stuff I've collected, after I weed through it all. In one study on indoor artficial lighting (greenhouse) it mentions HPS & MH. Although it's a re~read I could almost go either way with what they say. They say the combo works best but then go on to say that MH is used to control growth?? Says MH promotes foilage, closer internode, and greening up a plant an ornamental but use hps for growth. I'm going to re~read it today, when I do I'll throw it out here.
What significence does green light have on a plant? It only reflects that shade of green that is seen..what happens to the rest of it and if it's aborbed what does the green absorbed do?

Delta · 03-04-2002, 12:10 PM

has moved to a new thread. This happened a few days ago, for those that missed it, it's here:

http://www.hempcultivation.com/420/s...threadid=20621

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

BD, thank you for understanding my points of view in this thread. I apologize again for getting a little out of hand and brining you into this.

But honestly, you are (and have been) a great inspiration to me. If there is ANYONE on this board that keeps me coming back, it's you. You encouraged me to open up and fired the passion within me. You stay objective, the efforts you put forth to state the mission, and your way of attracting learned individuals to the cause is eloquent, to say the least.

You (and verbal) are who enlightened me to the online world of hempcultivation.com, in the first place. For that, imo, you don't get the thanks you deserve. Let me say, again. Thank you, both. (You too, MMV, for kicking me in the ass a few times once I got here!)

You all always stand up for what is just and the points you make should be well considered, by all. Especially the establishment...

Stay cool, guys. Everyone.

*OzGrowa* · 10-16-2002, 02:47 AM

Published research from Tazawa on the Hortilux and other HPS lamps in comparison with the MH. (Cached Google copy included as original is hosted in Japan and is often unreachable)

Part 1 of the paper.

Original: http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/engpag...awa/tazawa1.htm

Cached:http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cach...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Part 2 of the paper

Original:http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/engpag...wa2/tazawa2.htm

Cached:http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cach...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

KRS_ONE · 10-16-2002, 09:47 AM

I don't get it...

All four of those links amount to absolutely nothing. Can you copy and paste the information?

Actually, 2 of them were "404 not found", and the other two were just simple google searches for "cach...". What does this have to do with HPS being better than MH?

What is your argument?

*OzGrowa* · 10-16-2002, 02:29 PM

Quote:

I don't get it...

All four of those links amount to absolutely nothing. Can you copy and paste the information?

Actually, 2 of them were "404 not found", and the other two were just simple google searches for "cach...". What does this have to do with HPS being better than MH?

What is your argument?

Those references link to a published study of lamps which was the basis for my claims, if you are unable to access them you will be unable to participate in this thread, it would therefore be in your bests interests, to say nothing whatsoever.

I posted the references months ago to this study , nobody chose to read and discuss them, for me the issue allways was a forgone conclusion based on my 10K grows and the literature. If people want to burn MH lamps, burn 5 types of lamp

so be it, I keep mine for photography only, you can see the results of what a HPS lamp can do by looking at any one of a number of my threads in the VI forum.

grow on

Oz

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