weedchiller

Cloning, saving power around the house when your HPS arrives.
PITA when there is a few of them swinging around.
It's worth having a few in stock.
My 18w are 1200 lumens, and some 400w are 55kl. That's 46 bulbs to replace the HPS, using 828 watts.
Can you tell me the name of the bulb? I haven't seen a 20w compact with that many lumens.

edith

I saw the bulb in wilkinsons (you come from england so i trust you know the purveyor of all things cheap and tacky! Not knocking it, it's great. Just a bit scummy!). Don't know what spectrum it's in, but it's only six quid.

My growing area is basically a wardrobe, and i only plan on growing 1, maybe 2 plants, so i'll only need about 9k lums for two square feet(??). If i sort out the light penetration issue, will this be enough to get a decent (im not that bothered about mega-yields first time) crop using just the flo lighting. If not, why not? Cheers

Oh yeah, call me dumbass, but what does PITA mean?

weedchiller

Pain in the arse.
For low light levels, the plants seem to prefer side lighting, so maybe 4 x 4' strip lights mounted vertically. I've had some success vegging like that.
I'd grow more plants, it'd be disapointing if they were both male.
.

Cassius

This might be a bit late, but I thought I'd stick it up anyway. A perosnal mental exercise if nothing else.
WARNING: This post is very long. If you have anything better to do, you might want to do it instead.

Now, consider I'm a newbie myself. This is just my two cents, and it may or may not be a ripoff. I've been reading up for years, but I'm a growing virgin, so to speak...

Fluorescent lights have the wrong spectrum for growing, as I'm sure you've heard. This is, of course, not completely accurate, fluorescents can centaintly be used, but in terms of efficiency, they aren't optimal for any purpose. During the vegitative stage, plants grow best with lights that emulate the bright-white or blue-white light of sunlight early in the year. This will promote stocky growth and short inter-node stem growth, yielding the bushy plants we indoor growers love to have. During the flowering stage, the deeper orangish-red light, similar to sunlight from a sun lower on the horizon, works best.

The thing is, no light source yet invented has been able to closely match the light spectrum of the sun. It produces a very bright, very wide spectrum, that changes based on time of year, angle in the sky, etc. So for indoor growers, we just try to find the best tradeoff to stimulate the proper bio-chemical signals, yet also be efficient and economical. To do this, we use fluorescents mainly for the earliest growth periods, during cloning or seed germination. We use Metal Halide lighting to promote good vegitative growth. We use High Presure Sodium lights for the flowering stage. Or we use some combination, or a spetrum enhanced bulb to try and get the best of both worlds.

But these artificial light sources still don't work like natural sunlight. sunlight, as I mentioned, produces very broad, even light level across the visible spectrum, due to the imense number of different nuclear reations that occur under it's surface. Aftificial bulbs will usually generate light from a small number of reactions, such as the ionic charging of a selection of metal ions, gasses, fluorescent compounds, and the like. This produces the varied and very different spectrums of the many varieties of bulbs out there. None produce quite such an even field of visible light.

Fluorescents, for instance. The light of a fluorescent spectrum certaintly not a smooth gradient of tones. Fluoerescents produce the greatest amount of their light in the blue and green areas of the spectrum. This gives them that whiter that white lighting aspect that makes them popular for the clean-looking spaces like supermarkets and such. However, compared to sunlight, they produce a lower level of other visible frequencies, such as red-orange range. This in itself reduces their usefulness. The green area of the spectrum is used only somewhat in photosynthesis. As most plants are green, if you've ever noticed that shows that green light is being reflected. A considerable amount of the fluorescents' output could be in this range, reducing the amount of usable light out ofit's total output. Also, red is an important spectrum to have during all stages of photosynthesis, and gains condsiderably during the later flowering stage. Both HM and HPS produce greater red frequency light that that of fluorescent bulbs, Im quite sure.

Recently, people have been revisiting fluoescent lights due to a new wave of full spectrum lights. One one hand, 'cool' and 'warm' fluorescent bulbs have been offered for years. In most cases, this was simply a coloring that was added to the glass to filter out the light spectrums that made things, especially photographic subjects, look pasty, harsh, or otherwise unpleasent and cold while under fluoresent light. This did little to improve on the actual output of the bulb.

Some bulbs are now claiming a spectrum optimized for horticultural purposes. I'm not an expert on these light sources, but it's possible they could be much improved over older bulbs. Much as HID makers 'tweaked' their bulb design to produce greater dynamic light range in Son Agro, Hortilux, and AgroSun bulbs, some fluorecent light makers are changing the way their fluorescent bulbs work, using a different mixture of gasses to produce spectums more condusive to growing. These are likely best realized for vegitaive growing, perhaps more lettuces(sp?) and herbs. For tomatoes, flowers, and other plants valued for their fruiting bodies (like our own special 'herb'), we still need good output in the red-orange range is very valuble for good growth.

Another issue. Efficiency improves quite significantly based on the wattage. I don't have numbers specific to fluorescent, but I can paraphase ones from papers on MH and HPS lighting systems: The ballasts used on these systems do not actually draw the same amount of power as the bulbs they are designed for. I.E. a 70 watt HPS of HM bulb will lose around 35% power. In other words, it will draw 95 watts, but only 70 will be used by the bulb for light production. A 1000watt bulb, however, is 7% ineffiecient. It would draw 1070 watts of power for that 1000 watt bulb. If you only needed 70 watts of light, then it wouldn't make sense to use a 1000 watter, but it usually makes sense, in many ways, to buy the biggest bulb you can reasonably make use of. Not saying that there are not benefits to having smaller bulb sizes, AND I'm not saying antything about the ballast efficiency of fluoesecnt light sources, but 22.5 fluorescent hardly make sense at all. Of course I'm not suggesting I though you were seriously considering that option, but still. Besides, I sure it would be dangerous to try and cut one of those things it half, and I somehow doubt it would still work.

I respect a desire not to put too much money and effort into something. Trying to balance this aspect has kept me from accomplishing much of anything. If you feel like buying a cheap bulb and doing it half-assed (half-arsed? is that used over there?), have-at. It's better than wimping out and doing nothing at all. I've many times heard how inspiring it is to see your fisrt plant sprowting form the ground, and how it influenced someone to really put some effort and money into it. So just get to it. Don't go itno it unawares, of course. A good read-up on materials, lights, nutrients, legalities, whatever, is certaintly a good idea. But it's too easy to put it off forever if you're waiting for the most perfect light EVER. Just consider you get out of it what you put in to it.

Now to practicality. I'm a yanky, forsooth, and know little about the difficulty in obtaining things across the sea... but for your operation, there are a few possibilities that seem good.

I've recently heard about something called the 'Envirolite.' It's a compact fluorsecent type bulb touted as having a full spectrum, and runs at 95 watts, putting out something around 8900 lumens. For your two plants, one or more of these might be good enough. At ~$100(US) they aren't that cheap, but sound nice, also usable in smaller spaces (1 1/2 foot or so) unlike many fluorescents, at 4 foot long...

Another possibility is a small HPS light. In the US, they can purportedly be gotten at Home Depot, a home improvent/hardwarey type store. They run about 100/150 bucks US, and are 70 watts. You might be able to get 150 watt systmes as well. They are sold as 'home security lights.' I don't know how availible this kind of thing would be over in european countries. Lastly, of course, the internet. Ebay is where I've been looking, you can go with a gamble for less or nearly sure for more. If you have access to a credit card, ar a money order, etc., you might consider this option. You did say 'financially limited', I don't know whether thats six quid or £100. Either way, you have to grow within your means. Buy what you can afford and get started, I suppose.

I realize this posting is disgustingly verbose. I'm truly sorry, I have not ability to be quick and precise when posting this stuff. That said, I hope it has been slightly helpful, or illuminating (no pun intended), to some degree.

As always, the very best of luck to you...

Cheers,
Cassius

weedchiller

What he said.
Been doing your reading Cassius. No envirolights here yet, not even flourex. I've found two non-hydro outlets for HPS. You still have to mess with the ballasts to make them remote.
Also, what you pay a dollar for, usually costs us a quid or more, but then, they don't jail us for a few dozen plants.
It's difficult to believe how easy this hobby is at first, so I always recommend strip lights for first grow. When the plants get to 24" the grower normally buys an HPS, and the strip lights are still useful.

edith

Cassius, that was extremely helpful. You’re right about a germinating plant inspiring you to get better stuff. One of my babies is growing nicely. Two weeks and it’s 5 inches tall with 4 sets of leaves. The other one seems to be the elephant man of cannabis plants. It has a set of starter leaves with a stem growing out the top, with a leaf set at the top of this. At the side of this second stem grows what looks like small branches with white protrusions poking out of the side! The freak! That’ll teach me to grow from bagseed. Never mind, cali orange seeds coming soon.

Anyway, I digress. After a few days thought I’ve decided to bite the bullet and buy a 250w HPS Son T Agro light with reflector and ballast for £125 (good price?). You said that HPS is used mainly for flowering. Will it be ok for veg growth or should I stick with the flos?

Once again, thanks for the help. It’s explained a lot of what’s, how’s and why’s. Oh, and it is indeed ‘half-arsed’. You cheeky slag! (British)

Cassius

A mutant, hmm...? Sounds interesting. I don't suppose you could safely post pictures. It's fun to see the wierd stuff people grow, too.

A 250watt should be fine for a small grow of only a few plants. They tend to be somewhat more expensive (per watt) than a 400 or a 1000 watter. By my math, you've found one at $190 US. That seems about average, maybe a bit below.

When buying a HID lamp, there are three things I'd look at. First, the ballast type. Ballast quality can be hard to tell, but, in general, I think the type that come in a sealed, extruded aluminum encasing seem to be better. The have a slick look to them and have little fin-type things on them usually. The other type is just a sheet metal box. I don't actually know if they're better or not (though I suppose they might be more resistant to moisture, at least theoretically) but they have a solider, more dependable look to them.

The second is the reflector type. Reflectors can make a fairly significant impact on your lighing. Reflectivity can vary based on the materials and finishes used. A highly-reflective polished aluminum reflector may reflect over 90% of the light. Less expensive, generic models may be in the 60's. It's not a huge factor, but should be considered. The shape is important, too. If you buy a reflector that is very deep, with steep sides, it wont work as well. they tend to reflect light sideways more than down, or just bounce it around inside the reflector. The flatter the design, the more light is cast downward. So usually, a larger reflector, with a flatter design might suit your purposes better. In general, a brand name reflector is better than house brands. Diamond's Lumenarc design is one example, using a fairly flat design with a multifacted, highly polished aluminum for it's reflector. SunGrow is another, which offers various models, usually with sides at around 45%, with flat backed or double parabolic backs, and offer such options as air-cooling. These are just a couple of the many good options.

The third is the bulb itself. I don't know a whole lot about the Son-T-Agro bulb, and don't know if it's different than the Son Agro bulb. I swear, it seems lighting industry has a maximum of 10 sylables they just stick together at random. Confusing as hell, at times. Anyway, I believe it's an 'enhanced spectrum' HPS bulb, I think made by Phillips. If it is, you don't have to worry. Bulbs manufactured by Phillips, GE --and I believe Hortilux is the company behind Hortilux biulbs-- are usually the standards of a quality bulb. A company passing off a generic version might not be terribly dependable. Might be fine, too, but it's probably the sign of a penny-penching dealer who won't put in an extra few bucks for a good bulb. And of course, if no bulb was included, a good one is often over $50US (say £35UK).

Just something to be considered. Of course, if it's in your price range, and it doesn't look like a piece of junk, go ahead. It's your money.

boy oh boy. that was the first question, hmmm.

It should be fine for vegitative growth as well. As I said, I don't know for sure, but I think the Son-T-Agro is an enhanced spectum light. I.E. the standard mixture of gasses and metals in a HPS bulb has been doped with others that produce blue spectrum light as well. This makes it nearly ideal as a single-bulb option for growers of plants like MJ. It produces enough blue-spectrum light to encourage the plant to grow bushy and thick in vegitative stage, plus it keeps growth good while supplying the copious amounts of red-orange light needed for phat buds to develop when flowering. Of course, if you have flourescent lights, it would be best to have them running as well. Every bit helps.

Anyway, for a small grow of only a couple plants, in a small space of maybe, say, six square feet, a 250 watt Son-T-Agro HPS could grow some very nice product. Keep up the good work, and keep us all updated! I don't like suspense.

Cheers,
Cassius

weedchiller

You can get a 400w for the same price, but if heat is an issue, then you are right. I've got a 400 in 2'6" square, doing OK. Son agro can be used for veg. Not the best, (MH is,) but better than floros.
What growing system? I'm a hydro guy, (bubblers,) I like them, they suit lazy growers like me, and the plants grow well.
Cassius has sussed the real deal, it's the light. Anything else is just details.
Edith, can you sort another grow area? Or partition the wardrobe into two? Thing is, if you can manage a separate area for veg and flower, you have continual harvest. Once sorted, you can get 6 crops a year. Not a lighting subject, so no more here, if interested, PM or post in growth/growing indoors.

Firextol

Ok. One thing I noticed. I didn't read all of dcca's posts(they were long).

But as I see it...

If you use 22.5 flo's to get the same lumens that's 450 watts. Compared to one HPS, using 400w.

Seems simply enough for me!

Someone smack this guy already?

edith

From my second post:

"How then, is the HPS better than the 22.5 compacts (apart from the watts)?"