Hiy

I have just lost one tank with three White Widow plants at 4 weeks into 12/12 and at around 4&1/2 feet. They showed severe nutrient deficiency, withered up and died. I thought I was dealing with a nutrient problem, but now I suspect it to be root rot of some kind. I have two other tanks in the room at the same stage, and one is looking a bit discoloured and manky in the roots. I am obviously worried about this one going the same way as the last, and possibly losing the whole crop.
I have today added Rhizotonic root stimulant (at half strength), to both nutrient reservoirs, I plan to change the reservoirs with fresh solution with low nutrient 14-16 EC and full strength Rhizotonic. The idea being to give my plants some help in root disease defenses.
Does this make any sense, or have I got it all wrong?
Any help will be much appreciated
Also I`ve been caught out by the continued growth of this new (to me) strain of plant, White Widow, compared with what I`ve been used to, Fat Budda. They`re upto 7 feet tall now and its getting unmanageable. I want to bend some of the tops over to take them away from the lights. Firstly, I dont know how to go about this ie. just tie them back to something as far as they comfortably go. Or am I better off snapping and splinting? Or will either of these shock the plant to the extent that it will hinder the root strengthening that I hope to achieve?
So little knowledge and so many questions. Sorry if its a pain in the ass, but as I said any help will be much appreciated.
Here are some pics:- One of my sick plants, now deceased, one of a leaf showing some sort of deficiancy, one of my second tank and one of my third tank.
Cheers Hiy

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HydroSan

Hi Hiy

Root stim is not realy going to help IMO, you don't need to stimulate new roots, you need to combat the pathogen eating the roots you have

An enzyme product like cannazyme, or bioponic bactivator should help balance the microrganism population, and remove some of the dead organic matter from the rootzone. The other option is H2O2 but check you don't have any organic based nutes or addatives before going down the H2O2 route

check nute temps (72-74F) a warm res will encourage pathogens, a cold res will slow metabolism

Increase dissolved O2 (DO) in the res with an airstone, powerhead, or high return pipe

The damage on the leaf looks like Ph lockout coupled with nute burn. Maybe its an older leaf that was burnt, and then suffered bad pH?

With an overgrown grow, you can only tie the stems away from the lights as best you can, make the most of a bad situation. keep training to a minimum, just move the stems that are too close to the lights, tie them with string or whatever, they will turn up for the lights quick enough you should avoid snapping anything

San

cecil_b

Also, dump your resevoirs & clean them out thoroughly with bleach and make sure to rinse well. Rinse your root system well with clean water and make sure there is no "jelly" looking stuff attached to the roots or stems. You can trim any obviously sick/dead roots as long as they are peripheral and not part of the large central roots. This will keep them from reinfecting the new resevoir and ultimately breaking off and clogging your waterworks.

IMO, the resevoir was not aerated properly, or it's not in a light-proof container (or both). You'd have to post more about your pumps, filters, &ct.

As for the size issue - it's kinda late for training. Snapping the stems is a bad idea. You could take cuttings off the tallest parts and use as clones (in fact, sexing a clone is not a bad idea for such a monster if you're not sure it's a girl).

-cb

__________________
"I am kind of paranoid in reverse. I suspect people of plotting to make me happy." - J. D. Salinger

My Grow v1.0 Journal Skunk #1 & DP Blueberry in soil.
My Grower's Dictionary v1.2 Updated 3/14/04... Check it out and comment for the benefit of all.
Also visit the Cultivation Risk Report. Maybe it will put your mind at ease (or maybe not!)
More advanced grower? Check out the CO2 Enrichment Guide.

Hiy

Thanks San,
To my rescue yet again. I`ve been onto my hydro store and they have what you mentioned, and they say Pirhana have a product out that does this job and seems to cover (How much is hype I dont know), more of these type of problems. 65 pounds a 1/2 kilo, though it lasts a long time. I`ll go out there today and pick up the medicine required.
Thanks also for the bending tips, Its going to be an unruly grow, assuming it survives, but I`m sure I`ll manage .
I`ll try and keep you informed as to how it goes. Perhaps time I started that g/j off again, especially now it is so easy to put pics up on the site.
Oh just one other thing, you mentioned to be wary of H202 and existing organic nutes or addatives, and I have used Rhizotonic, which is 100% organic, just not sure whether this new product works like H202 or not, or what it is about H202 that reacts badly with organics. Of course I`ll ask the shop guys and hope they are able to tell me.

Thanks once again San, Yer a brick, and I`d love to share a cookie and fill yer bowl with some of my finest bud `n` bubblehash.

Cheers Hiy...

__________________
8 N/Lights, 1 Blueberry?? Current Hydro Grow Journal PICS Buds & Harvest from my last grow PICS First Bubble Hash Attempt 7 Foot Widows DisasterLostGrow/J
May Maryjane smile kindly on all those who help out here at H/C.com

HydroSan

The deal with H2O2 is that it will oxydize anything organic, thats dead stuff, micro organisms, etc. including any organic compounds in the addatives or nutes, it will kill good bugs along with bad bugs. Basically, the choice is between using chemical nutes & H2O2 for a more "sterile" grow environment in the rootzone, OR an enzyme product/s, or beneficial bacterial like bioponic bactivator, which break down the dead organic matter. They feed on it the same as the pathogen bugs, but don't kill live stuff, unlike pathogens

If you have any organic compounds in any of your addatives or nutes, H2O2 is realy not the best choice as it could react with the organic compound, at best rendering it useless, and at worst contaminating the res with unwanted byproducts of the reaction.

Whichever choice you use, a well airated res is mandatory so the roots get a ready supply of O2. If you go for a bioponic product, the bugs will want a good supply of O2 too

Pathogens are oppertunists and often attack stressed plants, so check all environmental issues too

If it were my problem, I would turn up my powerhead to increase DO, and try an enzyme product first, and keep a good eye on the rootzone. If it started to look better, great. If it didn't seem to be doing it, I would bin the res, blast the roots with a spray bottle containing a H2O2 mix, then introduce a fresh res once everything was cleaned with H2O2, ommiting any organic addatives in the new res.

7 ft widows a man after my own heart

San

Hiy

Hey there San,
Good informative advice, that I can understand. Cheers mate .
I got the Cannazym, gonna readjust my tank positions, now that I have one less. Then replace the res with fresh nutes (Canna Flores), and Cannazym. New airstone too.
I`ll keep you posted

Thanks again, Hiy...

Hiy

Sorry I missed your reply Cecil ,
I have taken note of what you say, and will get back with the air details soon. I`ve had a long stint working on my grow, and I`m late, on my way out. Did`nt want you thinking I was being rude, no just a little stupid!!
Cheers Hiy...

Hiy

Ah, time to sit down with a large spliff laced with bud and hash, I love a cocktail, and bring things upto date. Hold on, wheres that bar of chocolate.
Ok, I`ve spread the tanks apart to give them more room. Complicated buisiness with a net taught in position a good foot below the highest tops. I knew moving a tank of 7 foot Widows was literally a tall order , but with a mates help it was`nt too much trouble. Should be well worth the effort if I can keep them healthy, giving them more room to thrive in.
I have`nt fully sorted out the bending back of the tops yet but its all in place to do so. In fact, I did manage to get my lights up another foot after readjusting the hanging poles, so its not an immediate threat, it may even manage now if they`ve finished reaching for it. However on account of the size of the plants I am tempted to bend over the tallest 1/2 dozen or so prominent tops so I can lower the lights and get some better light to buds developing lower down the plants. Even with mylar surrounding the grow, its considerably darker 1/2 way down the sides. Another choice would be to borrow a couple of 250wt lights a mate has spare, to move around the sides , but need to check out if my circuits are up to more load. I already have 2 600wts over the one tank of biggies and a 1k over the other tank. Also there is the heat to think about.
I`ve drained the tanks off and replaced with nutes at 17 EC and 150mls of Cannazym per 60ltr tank. Cannazym can under some circumstances be used at double strength, but was unsure if it included my situation so I went with normal reccomended strength, 1ltr per 400ltr stock = 150mls per 60ltr tank, if my calculations are correct.
O2 Supply . I use RENA pumps. I have 2 different sizes, a small and a medium. I dont think this is a problem as the smaller of the two is used on Tank 3 which is doing best of all. The air stone in Tank 2 was not up to much so I put a new one in. Perhaps I might get a couple more pumps and have two in each tank (or is that a bit over the top?). The root zone is light tight. One thing that may have some affect on air at the roots is that I am using greenhouse cappillary mat for spreader mat on my lost tank and tank 2 and hydro store type spreader mat on Tank 3. I have used this cappillary mat for my last 2 grows without a problem, but I have noticed it is thicker and denser and the roots have far fewer upward pointing fingers, which I assume are taking in 02. Not sure on that one.
San, what you suggest seems like good sense to me, but how long would you expect to go with Cannazym before noticing a difference, assuming it has one that is? I mean before resorting to the root spraying with H202 etc. Thanks for the cool explanation on the science bye the way. Lots of leaves went the way of the one in the photo, so am not really sure on that one .
Cecil, thanks for your input, I sure did get everything to do with my failed tank out of the room and treated with sterilising fluid, along with everything that came into contact with it. I even showered and put my cloths in the wash, cos as they say, you can never be too paranoid .
Thanks for the cloning ideas, I never thought of taking cuttings in the 5th week of 12/12. However I`m always sure they`re girls that go in my tanks so there`s no need on this occasion.

I`ll keep you posted, thanks, Hiy...

cecil_b

Hiy: If your circuits are overloaded, see if you can remote some of your ballasts. I've got my ballasts upstairs or in the next room and drilled down/through into the grow areas. don't waste your money on airstones or pumps. It sounds like they are fine. Clean them up and kill that baaaad gook

__________________
"I am kind of paranoid in reverse. I suspect people of plotting to make me happy." - J. D. Salinger

My Grow v1.0 Journal Skunk #1 & DP Blueberry in soil.
My Grower's Dictionary v1.2 Updated 3/14/04... Check it out and comment for the benefit of all.
Also visit the Cultivation Risk Report. Maybe it will put your mind at ease (or maybe not!)
More advanced grower? Check out the CO2 Enrichment Guide.

Hiy

Nice suggestion with the lights Cecil, but I think I`m gonna be allright load wise. Might have to pay some attention to heat built up, but will probrably get away with it this crop. Summer, on the other hand.
Had the Cannazym in the tanks for a couple of days. Am getting worried about Tank 2 now though. Only used 8lts of nute res up, Ph has fallen (test kit, light green dropped to strong yellow), and ec raised from 17EC to 19EC. Whilst Tank 3 has drunk up 30lts of res Ph has I think fallen as well but very marginally, EC risen from 17 to 24. Bigger girls in Tank3, but Tank2 still does`nt seem right to me.
Tank 2 is losing more leaves than 3 and one or two of the older leaves are showing some similar, but not as severe, nute deficiency signs, yellow striping between the veins.
Roots are not appearing to be too bad, certainly no worse, but I guess (and it is a guess!) if there is no improvement by Monday I should treat the roots with H202. What do you think guys?

Hiy...