lurkapup

the term organic is a pretty interesting one, and at least over here (in NZ) its wickedly political with some harsh lobbying going on to establish a standard .. with different groups (including genetic engineers, go figure) all arguing for different issues.

Like one group wanted to say it was X (cant remember their definition or requirements) .. but another said nope that doesnt include spirituality ... they felt that organics is a lifestyle attitude as well as everything else ..

One standard simply says chemicals wont have been used on the soil/land for a minimum of 7 years ... but then I had a big discussion with my g/f tonight about what constitutes an organic fertaliser ... is it the amount of technology used? the origins of the materials? the manner its used?

Shes doing her phd in GE discourses .. so has a lot of info about some of these issues so talking to her about it rocks ..

one that she likes thats used by a particular group is the idea of a 'closed system' .. you dont add anything to your farm (this gets tricky for indoor growing ) that isnt there already .. if your soil needs particular nutrients you plant a crop that will supply that nutrient and turn it into the soil ... this connects to ideas of sustainablity .. another big focus in some definitions but not in others ...

The closed system model is a totally different approach to what many groups see as 'organic' .. and attacks a lot of the concepts such as fertalising straight away .. it also slams GE .. which is all about purchasing a seed product .. you're importing into the system before you even start (one of the criticisms of GE isnt just the technology itself but the ecconomic institutions and structures it establishes .. take the feed the third world argument .. how do they buy the seeds? cause they'll have to .. perhaps not the first time .. but eventually ... these companies arent investing millions out of altruism )

.. even hybrids which wont grow well without particular ferts etc ..

I mean if genetic engineers can argue that there products are organic then you get an idea of the myrid of ways the terms being co-opted ...

I was looking for plant suppliments today .. and everything that can seems to use the term organic .. but some of them are clearly dodgy .. I mean sure worm castings .. that seems good .. but then what are they fed? whats the soil they're living in like? how are they cared for? (this is where things like spirituality start coming in .. how do you consider and treat your crops and materials ... in some perspectives you cant mass produce organics .. its an oxymoron from their definintion...)

Im not saying dont buy organic ferts .. nor am I saying that premixed ferts etc are bad ... Im not really saying anything other than think about it .. all too often we see the term 'organic' and assume its a good environmentally safe and caring product .. and unfortunately most marketing companies know this .. and use it mercilessly ... so next time you go buy some organic ferts . think about where it came from, how its made .. what possible impacts are associated with using/purchasing that product ... how does it fit with your notion of organics?

I mean people were all into buying freerange eggs ... but then it turned out that some farms were calling their eggs free range .. but they still beaked the chickens (burning their beak points off so they cant peck each other) .. which isnt what you'd imagine an egg brand called 'ecco-eggs' would do ...


mmm thats enough for now

/me gets off the soapbox

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There is something of the marvelous in all things of nature.
Aristotle 384-322BC, Parts of Animals

organic

Good question and topic. Wish I had more time to address it right now...

For a short answer, the term "organic" is already hopelessly co-opted here in the states. It had more meaning before the federal government decided to dictate the rules, which in theory was a good idea, as now there is a nation-wide standard of rules and regulations that all state and independent organic licensing organizations have to follow (some are even more strict). The problem is that these rules were heavily influenced by agri-business corporations, and therefore allow a lot of things that small farmers would never (have to) use. Beware - if it says organic, but comes from a corporation, it's probably not what you would think of as organic.

There is a board of standards and list of "approved materials" available - the organization is called OMRI (organic materials review institute), I forget the address right now, but I'll try to post something later.

Short on time right now, but I will write more and address some of the other points.

O

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Hie thee hence to The Library
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lurkapup

mmm well I bet thats fuel for the debate here then if it hasnt worked i nfavour of producing a umm .. 'peoples' standard I guess

its kinda wicked how the state/corperations can co-opt the language and ideology of something even as positive sounding and seemingly clear as 'organic' and turn it around :/

one my g/f spits about a lot is the usage of the term 'precautionary principle' which was an environmentalist term for how technology should be used (not used) ... now science and the governemnt say they follow the precautionary principle by waiting a year before releasing ge into the environment .. which isnt it at all!! but they're making themselves sound so good :/

__________________
There is something of the marvelous in all things of nature.
Aristotle 384-322BC, Parts of Animals

organic

Yea...I hear ya (and yer GF too) ... f'ing gub'mint & corporations...It's bad enough that they're screwing us all over, then they go and try to tell us that they're not...

The truth to the matter is that if you want to be assured of eating clean food, you have to put in the effort to really know where your food comes from. For me this means I try to buy locally grown food from small farms whenever possible, and also grow my own. It's probably easier for me, seeing as how I'm a farmer myself, but most places have some kind of farmers market where you can actually get to know the person who is growing your veggies.

This will be hard to keep on any sort of track, being as how there are about a million directions it could go off into, and me having just about as many opinions and observations on the subject. So I'll try to keep it reasonable.

Anyway, back to it, there is a newer movement going on here in the states, I don't really remember what it's called, but it's a lot closer to the original ideals of organics. The focus is on not just using "natural"/environmentally friendly substances to farm with, but also trying to create the closed loop, as your GF described. This can only work on a small farm, and to me, that is the key to a truly "organic" and sustainable operation. Once a farm gets beyond a certain size, it is impossible to maintain these ideals practicabally and still make a living.

My own farm is not a closed system yet. But that's what I'm working toward. (Also by the way it is almost impossible to create a closed system without incorporating livestock, just as a so you know.)

Another aspect to the discussion is that you have to constantly balance the ideals with the economic reality of keeping your farm going. Some of the greatest ideas end up being extremely difficult or impossible to achieve when faced with the realities, mostly of time (which of course is money, especially when you have 10,000 different little jobs to keep going).

Take for instance the ideal of me keeping some chickens, goats, and a cow or two so I can create a closed system for my berry farm. Ideally I would grow forage crops for them (let's simplify and say some grains and some corn) so I wouldn't have to import feed, and then I could use the manure to help fertilize my crops. Sounds great. Until you take in to account that I would have to make enough time to:

• obtain the livestock
• build housing for the livestock
• build a fence to keep the livestock in
• plow and seed 2 forage crops (thus increasing my crop load by 2)
• devote time every day to care for the livestock
• periodically capture the goats who have slipped out of their pen (they are master escape artists) and hope they haven't eaten too many of my berry bushes

Now balance that out with me going to the feed store, picking up some blood meal, and sprinkling it on my rows. Not as ecologically sound, but much better than using chemical ferts, with the added bonus that I can stay in business. I'd rather do the closed system, but the math doesn't work out yet. Hopefully in the future.

I'm not sure quite where I was going with this, I guess I'm just trying to illuminate the picture of the organic movement. There's a lot of aspects to it.

And more to the point, my definition for organic, as far as using organic substances to grow with is concerned, is that it is composed of a naturally occuring substance that has not been processed. For instance, rock phosphate (which is pretty close to raw rock) is fine, but triple phosphate that has been treated with acids to liberate more of the phosphorus is not. I am not 100% hard line though.

Hope this hasn't been too boring

O

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Hie thee hence to The Library
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