RgB

For my upcoming grow I've decided to try a "water only" formula - putting everything in the soil as opposed to using fish emulsion and such as I had in my first grow. I'm also looking to open the piggy bank on this one now that I've gotten my hands dirty. I'm looking at using a promix base of 60ish percent in hopes of it's consistancy and ph regulation making my life a whole lot easier, unless I'm missing something. Here goes:

Promix Bx - 107 litres - (62%)
earthworm castings - 60 litres
kelp meal - 800ml - 1-2-2
Living Humus - 22litres
High K Bat Guano - 1litre - 0.5 - 35 - 0.1
Bone Meal - 1Litre - 2-14-0
Blood Meal - 1Litre - 12-0-0

total:
193.5 litres / 51.12 Gallons

Grand Total:
199.525 cad incl tax

I'm unsure, however, of whether or not I should be adding additional lime to deal with the ph (guano has a ph of 4.9 for example) or if whatevers in promix will do the job for me. Heres the specifications of the promix. I also can't seem to find dolomite lime at the place I shop - they have something called "grow lime", is that this?

+ Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss (75-85 % / vol.)
+ Perlite (horticultural grade)
+ Vermiculite
+ Dolomitic & Calcitic Limestone (pH adjuster)
+ Wetting Agent.

Also, will the Kelp meal do for a source of K or do I need something else.


Thanks a bunch

edit: In case you were wondering, this all comes to about 200 bones CAD - is that an absurd amount to pay for soil? I mean it should be renewable, right?

grass_hopper

Wow - that' a lot of $ for soil, bud! It sounds like it's on the right track, though. You've got a lot of organics in there. Are you going to use it all at once?? With soil that rich I'd be concerned about infestations of opportunistic bacteria/fungi.

Worm castings have a NPK of 3.2-1.1-1.5., which is variable based on what the worms were fed...

I'd agree you're a little light on the K. Kelp meal is used mainly for trace minerals. Kelp powder has an average analysis of 1-0-4, which is probably going to be the best thing for your mix. It's also available immediately.

If your pH is off at the outside, dolomitic lime is not going to help It's going to take an average of 6 months to release. I would get your soil analysis the way you want it first (your local agricultural extension could provide an analysis for you). The pH can be adjusted afterwards. Wood ashes would be a more readily available pH buffer to the guano, but with so much other stuff in there you might not even need it. Soak the wood ashes in water to make a tea, unless you want to do a LOT of mixing. I've never heard of grow lime either.

Good luck, bud - hope this is helpful.

__________________
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Ancient History:
Blueberry/Mazar (started in hydro, moved outdoors)...Skunk#1/Blueberry in Soil
Botanicare 42 Site Cloner - a Review...Grass_Hopper's Butane Honey Oil (BHO) Thread

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Beener

Hi RgB

Great...A soil build!

You have your Guano listed as high "K"...you mean high "P". By the way, where did you get that guano and what type is it? I've never seen numbers that high.

I've been working a soil mix(s) for close to 2 months now. I'm using a desert bat guano @ 8-4-1, a cave bat guano @ 3-10-1, and fossilized seabird guano @ 0-10-1. The secondary and micronutes vary as well as release times on these guanos.

The combined "P" of the bone meal and guano in your mix will be too much for vegetation. It might be perfect for a flower mix. Bone meal is a slow release nutrient, and may kick in as your guano (fast release) begins to deplete.

I'm using worm castings and kelp as well, along with several other things. The combination of worm castings, guano, and kelp is excellent for beneficial micr-organisms. The kelp also contains hormones and plant growth regulators...it's great stuff. Unfortunitely, it wont be enough as a stand alone source of "K". I would (and do) continue to use it.

Microbes love to feed on kelp, molasses, minerals, and fish nutes. Of course...if you have enough "N" in your mix, the fish nutes wont be necessary to feed your plants. But using a small splash in your water will still help your soil when possible.

I can tell you that the guanos will drop your pH quite a bit. You say that your soil mix contains 75/85% sphagnum peat. Then lime was added to adjust pH. Adjust it to what? Sphagnum peat has a pH around 5.5. Kelp meal will drop your pH too. So it's going to be necessary to test the soil pH and adjust accordingly.

Basic guano analysis doesn't contain sulfur. I would suggest using a sulfur containing base to adjust your pH back up again as needed.

Using something like sulfate of potash will not only raise the pH, but give you much needed sulfur and potassium. Before I use sulfate of potash, I crush it as fine as possible (so it goes without saying, that you want to buy it as finely crushed as you can find it.) I bought a small ($10) food processor, it does a decent job. But even at that, it wont powder it all. The sulfate of potash is 0-0-55. Be careful using this stuff...a little goes a long way.

The guanos provide enough Magnesium and calcium in excellent ratio. So using either isn't necessary. If that's all you can find (i.e. sul-po-mag or calcium hydroxide etc.) take care using them. You can, but if you do, maintain a ratio of "both" Ca & Mg at approx 2/3 parts calcium to 1 part magnesium. Having these two parts too far out of ratio can cause a lock-out. Having too much of these overall, can cause problems with lockout else where.

One necessary micronutrient that I've had trouble finding is Boron. Without turning this into a 3 page paper, I'll just say that Boron is a very important minor constituent. There may be enough contained naturally in your soil mix (or mine). I'm running a side by side clone project right now. Some soil contains volcanic rock dust for mineral content, and some does not.

The Key to building a great soil mix is cooking it. That would mean mixing your constituents together and allowing them to meld and grow together as one. Allowing it to release its nutients and pH adjusters until it is all one complete whole, instead of many parts together. Like a sauce. Only at this point can a definite pH be found, and hot spots of nutes be avoided.

I own enough plastic bins to open my own store. I mix my soil and nutrients together well. I keep it damp (not soaked), cool and covered. I re-mix it once a week or so. This will go on for at "least" 1 month. As I said earlier, it's been almost two months now. I check my soil pH every so often, to see when it stablizes. Then re-adjust as necessary. It's critical to have the pH right before you plant.

This mix (yours or mine) should be re-usable (as long as there isn't a disease or pest infestation). Actually, I've made a mix for vegetative growth, and a seperate mix for flower. The base mix is the same. The nute ratios are different. I plan on re-using them for a long time.

Might I suggest that you keep a little soil mix without nutes in it. I do this, and use it for fresh clones. I'll do the same for fresh seedlings. After they are established, I re-pot them in the nute mix. This helps to avoid nute burns on small plants. I have planted 2 clones directly into my nute mix to see if they can handle it. So far they have...but it's only been a week. I'll need more time to be sure.

If you don't have the clones to experiment with, err on the side of caution. GrasHopper mentioned teas. I brew some teas using a simple $5 aquarium pump and a milk jug. Woodash "will" adjust your pH more quickly, but for myself, I also use both the wood ash, and sulfate of potash. Sulfur is a necessary secondary nutrient, and needs to be present in a higher concentration than micronutrients (which are usually present in parts per million).

Now...as far as making your life easier. Well, in the long run it will. But as for now, you have a heck of a learning curve ahead of you. There are some excellent posts in the organic forum. I read there all the time. Then internet searches will give you tons of info.

There are a lot of choices in organic nutes. Deciding which to use can take some time. I've got at least $150 in soil mix myself, and i'm starting another batch very soon.

I figure that I've got $800 at least in lighting. Why use a lousy soil mix. Dropping $100 or more on nutes at a hydro store, is real easy to do. I think I'll be way ahead when all is said and done. Good Luck

__________________


Beener

RgB

I thought the P (my mistake) was a bit insane as well, but thats what it's listed as - Bat Guano Bloom (fruit eating Indonesian) 2L, says "king guano" on the package.

However, I've finally found the one store in Toronto that carries fox farms (I don't like to ship) and it wouldn't be much more expensive than this is and would presumably have a good ph and structure, and contains pretty much everything I'm planning on putting in my soil anyways - I may just wuss out this time around and go with that and water with guano tea for flowering (fish emulsion or something for veg). I'm just a bit over my head at this point and time, I may as well take away one thing to worry about for my first grow.

Beener

Give it some study and use some clones if you can. I'm having a good time playing with all the different mixes. Then when I put them into flower, I'm using another set of totally different nute mixes. I plan on taking the best nute mixes for both veg and flower, and playing with them again on another set of clones....dialing it in.

If your grow is all you have for smoking, maybe you should wait like you said. But if you can afford a couple of pots to play with, start small. The info to do it all is around here. I'm convinced it's the best way to grow in soil. Well worth the learning time.

__________________


Beener

RgB

Hmm I suppose your right, and I would like to learn how to make my own but the one thing I still don't really get are the ph issues with organic.

Firstly, I don't quite understand if Soil PH and Water PH are two different concerns. For example, if I had an alkaline soil and then watered with something on the acidic side, would it bring the soil more acid as well?

If I folier fed with some guano which left the water too alkaline but the soil was on the acidic side, as it relates to the plants absorbing the nutrients which figure would be relavant? The combination of the soil and water ph, or just the water?

I've accepted the fact that I would have to watch the PH, that it would fluctuate, and that there isn't a uniform organic modifier (i.e. PH Up & PH Down) but are there even available organic elements which will alter the ph with any degree of effectiveness?

This hurts my brain so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.


Oh yeah, I'm also struggling to find a good organic source of potassium.

RgB

While I'm at it, where do you guys purchase your unfertilized soil and what should I look for? Does it really matter because it's unfertilized? Thanks again.

Beener

Hey RgB
Well they are two parts of the same thing. You need to maintain a pH range in your soil mix to make all of your nutes available to the plant.

Lets look at it this way...Have you seen one of those pits full of colored balls that kids play in? It's usually a big box (like 10'x10') with the netting around it. Good...When your pH is correct, everything (nutes) is free to move about. The kids can enter and exit the colored ball pit as they please.

When your pH becomes out of range, it's like the balls in the pit become sticky. The fat kid named nitrogen isn't affected (the little b@st@rd). He just drags himself through the sticky colored balls, and can still leave when he wants too. But the little skinny kid named magnesium, gets stuck to all the colored balls, and he can't move. another kid named calcium ( no, no...a mom named calcium...ya that's it. A perfectly beautiful well rounded mom named calcium) gets caught in the sticky colored balls too, but pulls herself through. She gets out, but loses her shoes and shirt in the process. (ya, that's the ticket )

All the big kids like nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium can play in the sticky colored balls without a problem (lousy rich kids, with their guns and make-out parties). But the skinny kids like magnesium, and calcium the hot mama, oh, oh, and sulfur (the hot chick accross the street that would do me if I was still in my 20's), get stuck to the point that they can't move. The further out of range your pH is, the stickier the colored balls are. Until they're finally sticky enough to grab and hold the fat kid named phosphorus ....and on it goes......... get it?

The pH of the water and fertilizer will affect the pH of the soil. If you feed the soil with water or nutes that are out of the proper pH range....your soil mix will eventually drift out of range as well (and we lose all the skinny kids, and hot chicks) So it's important to start with the proper soil pH, and to "maintain" the pH by using water or nutes that are "also" in the same range.
Yes. This is exactly how small pH adjustments are made. It's still necessary to start with the proper soil pH range. Large pH adjustments are difficult to make once the plant is in the pot. If for no other reason...you can't stir or mix the soil in a pot once a plant is in it.
Dude, I know I just woke up...but wtf did you just say? Hmmm. If you meant...hmmm wtf did you say. Ok Ok...dude you hurt my brain with this one. I think what you're asking is.....if your nutes are to high in pH and your soil is to low in pH, would mixing them be juuust right. If Goldy Locks was that lucky, she wouldn't be stealing food from bears.....that's to say - sure, if you're blessed. But that kind of luck should be saved for the lotteries and near death experiences.
Absolutely. Your local hydro store should have organic pH adjusters. I use white vinegar to lower my pH, and I usually use lime to raise it (sometimes I use wood ash, and other times I use sulfate of potash). I put a few tablespoons of lime in a gallon jug of water. It takes a long time for the lime to "totally" dissolve, but the water in the jug can be used anyway ( I tend to over saturate the water, so the lime never completely dissolves). The lime is about $3 for a small bag, and the vinegar is about $1.75 a gallon. If you don't want to mess with the lime, check your hydro store or garden shop. I find using google searches to be very handy. Calling a garden shop ahead of time saves some hassle as well.
Your brain...I still don't know wtf you said back there
I use Sulfate of Potash and Sul-po-mag (sulfate of potash magnesia). I buy it right in the local garden supply store. I use Espoma brand. It's sold in small 7 or 8 pound bags. If you go to Espomas website, they have a spot where you type in your zip code and it will point out Espoma suppliers in your area. That's how I tracked them down.

Espoma distributes a full range of organics. They even make some dry mixes. I have one clone in their 5-3-3 mix right now. I also have a clone in a combination of their 5-3-3 and a 1/2 dose of 8-4-1 bat guano (I added some sulfate of potash and other goodies). The point is, it's all out there, and it's easy to find once you start looking.

I hope I didn't discourage you earlier. It's not hard, If you take it one step at a time. It's better described as "involved" than difficult. All the info is here on this site. It just depends on how bad you want it.

I just so happened to have a good head stash, and a few mother plants from clones of my last grow, so I decided to play around with them. I'm an impatient ( or was that in-patient ) he!!, I hate waiting. So I thought that I could make a lot of changes to the same plant if I used clones. Yup that's me all over (I'll clean it up in the morning). If you have the time, energy, and a couple of $$$ to invest in R&D. It will pay you back nicely.

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Beener

RgB

Ahh thank you very much, you've cleared a lot of things up. When I posted my second scenario I was basically trying to assertain whether or not water ph in itself was the determining level as far as the plants concerned when using nutrients in with the water or if the soil PH (which is effected by the water PH) was the all-determining factor.

That was an awesome story too.