Delta

A minute.

The next two elements I'm about to describe are somewhat controversial. They are:

Sodium (Na)
Silicon (Si)

Both are commonly thought of as 'not required' nutrients. And, wouldn't classify them as micronutrients; let alone secondaries. In fact, Sodium is regarded as harmful by many.

There are other cannabis beneficials that fall into the classification as 'unnecessary' (for other plants) such as cobalt, vanadium, nickel, selenium, and aluminum, but they are honestly classified as micronutrients.

I'm going to talk about them all, at one point.

Well, I can't disagree with the 'unnecessary' part because some plants will actually mature in pure water culture without them. (I'm sure quite a few of you could attest to this, too.) But, I'd also bet, not at optimal health (when compared as a control). So, considering consumption is the main use of our plant, I'd have to say that they definitely will impact the finished product in favorable ways.

Therefore, I disagree with many and boldly thrust the info on you to decide.

It really depends on which text you wish to side with. The real results are in practice. So, try these out with some test subjects, first. I think you'll be pleased with the results. I certainly was.

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>|< Delta9420 >|<

Delta

Hmm, where to start.

Ok, for clarification. The term soluble SALTS refers to the inorganic constituents (ions) that dissolves in water. This is not to be confused with SALT, aka Sodium (Na), or more commonly Sodium Chloride (aka Table Salt).

Sodium is directly involved in osmotic (water movement) and ionic balance in plants. It tends to encourage crop yields, accelerate enzyme activity, and in specific cases it acts as a purging agent against various toxic salts.

So many people say Sodium is not essential for plant growth, harmful even. But many (non cannabis) plants are clearly benefited by Sodium when Potassium is deficient. It can replace some but not all of the Potassium in a solution without any effect on yield. This is well documented. So, in certain scenarios (especially for K deficient plants), Sodium may actually be substituted for Potassium. Fertilizers containing sodium are currently recommended (USDA) for beet, tomato, and potatoes, among other crops. Although the effect of Sodium on yield has been studied, no real research is available to support its benefits to the biological quality of the plant. The sodium question appears in a very different light if, instead of only considering actual plant yield, the total composition of the plant and its influence on overall production and health are taken into account

It really surprises me to find that in many accepted plant physiology and agronomy textbooks there is no mention of the antagonism that clearly exists between Potassium and Sodium ions. They’re always limited to discussion of the antagonism of other cations, such as Potassium-Calcium and Potassium-Magnesium.

I’ve read that in tissue analysis of healthy flowering and foliage plants (non cannabis), sodium levels in the 200 to 500PPM range are very common with levels of 1000PPM occasionally seen. Some plants like geraniums, marigolds and pathos are often found to have up to 2000PPM sodium in the leaves and healthy plants with 5000PPM Sodium has been tested. Even sensitive plants like citrus can contain seemingly high sodium levels. A Poinsettia manual I have lists 4000PPM as in the normal range and 5000PPM as the toxicity threshold! Shesh!

So, I thought it would be interesting to know what the upper limit of Sodium concentration would be for my nutrient solutions prepared with distilled water. In the case of a pure water culture, a maximum concentration of 23-46 PPM has shown improvements for my plants. However, yield was reduced marginally (around 5%) when the Na concentration in the solution was increased to over 1000PPM (whoa! Don’t try this at home ), while bud quality was improved (imo). However, when it comes to Sodium, the normal range reference points are not as well known. This can lead to anxiety when tissue Sodium levels get too high and start to burn. Don’t wanna kill the girls. Informally, going back and forth, yield was maximized at around 500PPM, and bud quality was even better at 850PPM Na. These results suggest (to me) that when a plant is grown ‘ponically the Na concentration in the nutrient solution can be much higher than the recommended levels. Salt levels greater than 0.5 millions or 320 parts per million are likely to cause an imbalance of nutrients. Balance is tough with this element. Exchangeable sodium in soils is usually less than 25 mg1-1 Na (soil already has some salt in it, too) and this must be considered if mixing a solution for soil cultures. In summary, I think the merits of using Sodium Chloride (i.e. table salt) to raise the EC solution are worth considering and further experimentation.

The amounts I recommended should not adversely affect soil structure. Sodium is very susceptible to leaching and does not build up in soils easily (good thing). But, if you decide to walk the wire, don’t forget to flush more frequently.

If the tap water used contains high levels of chloride, it will usually have high levels of sodium, however the reverse is not true. Many waters can contain significant amounts of sodium without containing high levels of chloride.

But all of this doesn’t come without a price, especially for dense soil mediums.

FYI, Sodic mediums are low in the kinds of salts found in saline soils, but they are high in sodium.

Excess Sodium may cause plant toxicity or induce deficiencies of other elements (described earlier). When soluble salts are excessively high, the roots are unable to absorb water and the plant wilts. The problem is apt to be more pronounced after fertilizing, or during excessively dry conditions. Soluble salt levels are additionally important, because high soluble salts can reduce water uptake by plants, restrict root growth, cause burning of the foliage, inhibit flowering, and limit fruit and vegetable yields.

Sensitivity to soluble salts tends to differ for each strain and their stage of growth. Be careful. Some strains (the fruity ones, in my experience) are much more susceptible to salt injury.

Seed germination and seedling growth are more sensitive to salt stress than the growth of mature plants.

Allowing the medium (soil) to become too dry for even a few hours can result in salt injury!! Plants may recover from a salt injury provided the high salt level in the soil is reduced.

For most plants, the main effect of sodium toxicity is the destruction of soil structure. When Sodium ions saturate cation exchange sites, the colloids separate and disperse soil aggregates. This causes microscopic particles to lodge in the soil pores, sealing the soil surface. As a result, the soil sheds water rather than absorbing it. Tilth also suffers and crusts hard enough to stop seed germination may form. Sodic soils frequently show a poorly drained columnar subsoil structure. The effect of Sodium is most extreme on fine-textured soils and least extreme on coarse soils. Yet another reason for a coarser medium.

One last thing, Sodium reacts with water to form lye. This result is an extremely high medium pH (>8.5) and is one of the most significant side effects limiting growth of many plants with elevated Sodium levels. It’s not actually the Na causing the problem; it’s the pH and many people mistake pH damage for salt injury.

Routine irrigation of the media helps prevent salt accumulation, as long as the irrigation water itself is not a source of harmful ions.

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>|< Delta9420 >|<

psyconautR

Hi Delt, thanks for this very informative post, the entire grow community pays tribute to you. Anyway, how should I mix organic fertilizer (0-3-1), & calcium nitrate solution (1/2tsp per gallon H2O) to prevent ionic bonding?

__________________
THe sheep that give us rockwool have no natural predators.

TCC

Now.....before I start my next grow, I need to understand WHAT to use WHEN, I have copied and printed most of this and I am going to read over it.

But to truly make it for *dummies*
Can't you add a :

Vegetative:

Use this, this and this

Flowering:
Use this, and this and this

Ya know, for us REAL dummies!

Thank you in advance.....I appreciate the time you took into this post, but I am not very good in biology and I am trying to get the hang of this

::crossingfingersforreply::

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TCC
Thank the thinkers that think they thunk the thoughts that theorized
Idolized or despised bet I'm gettin' recognized
Mount Rushmore it? No ignore it can't rock with no big head
Half of the people want me half of the people want me dead
I am the Angel Of Def with my rhymes against humanity
Teeter-tottering between brilliance and insanity
~The Bloodhound Gang~

Delta

Fertilizer Name, Total N (Nitrate) (%), P (%), K (%), Mg (%), Ca (%), S (%)
Sodium chloride (table salt), 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Sodium carbonate (washing soda), 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Sodium hydroxide (caustic soda), 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Sodium tetraborate (borax), 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Sodium nitrate (Nitrate of Soda), 15, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Sodium peroxide (Na2O2), 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Sodium thiosulfate (Na2S2O3· 5H2O [Sodium silicate]), 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

There are quite a few sodium salts available for experimentation. One particular fertilizer I happen to like (more and more, lately) is Sodium silicate because it provides Silicon, which can be a hard nutrient to find in an ionically available form. All of the sources I listed have been proven effective for any medium. I encourage experimentation with all of them as I have found that each has unique qualities that are useful. Particularly when considering flavor and aroma.

Sodium silicate is available as a fertilizer, as is Nitrate of Soda. I highly recommend using Nitrate of Soda as a source of nitrates, however, using this in conjunction with Sodium silicate can cause salt burn. A more effective use of this combination is to alternate them or moderate their existence with a combination of other forms of nitrates, such as Potassium Nitrate, in your custom fertilizer recipe. This will allow you to achieve the ratio you’re looking for without letting the EC get out of whack.

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>|< Delta9420 >|<

Delta

and I thought I had included that last time I was talking about Sodium. Oh well, sorry.

Thank you everyone, once again, for your support. I've had my hands in many cookie jars lately and haven't gotten around to this thread. But, I didn't forget!

A precursor to what is about to follow. Soon, I will be pruning this thread of other posts that are out of context. Like this one. Others may be removed as well. There are quite a few installments left and I am already envisioning many more pages ...

So, I intend to take this mini-sebatical to review what I have already posted and make corrections and edits if necessary.

Please don't be offended if I remove one of your posts. It really is in the best interest of everyone, I think. Make no mistake, I truly appreciate the encouragement and when I slack again, feel free to bump this thread if you want to spur some action (although, it may just be me marking it read! ) ... keep bumping if necessary. You know us GenX'ers ...

Stay tuned for a very exciting element! Silicon.

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>|< Delta9420 >|<

psyconautR

Sodium Biphosphate? I've just been using it to adjust ph, as it came with the ph test kit, I didn't even know sodium was used as a nutrient. In fact, the people at Quick Grow told me that it wasn't a good idea to use sodium in hydroponics. Any idea why that might be?

Delta

Haha, I just rememered something funny. I'm glad you brought this up. There is much confusion amongst chemists with different applicable backgrounds. The term "Sodium Biphosphate" is really very antiquated and not used much anymore in agronomy. Here is the pertinent information:

Na4P2O7 - 10H2O
AKA: Sodium Biphosphate, Tetra sodium pyrophosphate, hydrated; Sodium pyrophosphate, 10-hydrate; Pyrophosphoric acid, tetrasodium salt, 10-hydrate

Now, I intentionally didn't list this because it really isn't a good choice for plants, in general. Not because of the Sodium (this is debatable) rather because of the fact that it produces metallic compounds with metallic ions. This can be written ionically as Na2(MgP2O7). The magnesium ion is inactivated and the resulting product formed does not precipitate from the solution. This can cause other problems with Calcium and from here on it gets rather complicated. With this stuff, you're just asking for problems with K, Mg & Ca ...

So, in summary, I also would NOT recommend you use Sodium Biphosphate. Rather, as a substitute use Super/Normal Phosphoric Acid (H3PO4) for pH Down.

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>|< Delta9420 >|<

Xzoomd

about iron Fe...would 6.0% Fe along with 1.5% Mg and 5% sulfur be ok for mj?

ps what goes on with urea ...crop of questions here. how would 8% urea affect the above?

THChemist

Delta 9...


Are you sure you were not my P-Chem professor that always looked a little stoned before lecture? LOL....Seriously tho...Xcellent series of posts...

For us Hydro folks, could you give us your opinion of appropriate ppm ranges for each of the Macros and Micros, for both growth and flowering?


As the inorganic variants of the salts (I know it's quasi- Organic...cuz there is some Carbon in some of the anions (e.g. Carbonates) are interesting dialogue, I am intrigued as to the target ppm levels for the Macros and Micros in both growth phases.

Thanks for your insight and expertise........




Do your #'s synch w/GH's target values? And could someone post GH's target ppms please? Thanks!