itchy

i am in the middle of my 4th grow in soil, and each grow i have experienced problems with nute burn. i can never seem to get it right - no matter how little ferts i use!

for the rest of my current grow i am not going to feed unless i can see that the plants needs it (although, i'm not sure i can tell a nutrient deficiency from burn ). hopefully i won't need to feed at all - we'll see...i'm hoping that the results will be heathly plants with no burn.

organic

Nute burn is usually very easy to diagnose - if you get burnt tips on the leaves, you got nute burn.

My contribution to this debate is that in general I am a proponent of the "less is more" school. However, I had an experience where half the plants were in a soil with ferts and the other half in soil without ferts, grown from the same seeds, plenty of light, pH was actually closer to optimal in the unferted soil - and the unferted plants were weak and sickly throughout their life and responded to liquid fert additions in both veg and flower. On the plus side they matured much faster, but the yield was pathetic in comparison.

One thing to keep in mind also is that when using organic type mixes and compost, often the organic matter is not completely broken down, and will use some of the nutes (primarily N) during the decomposition process.

But, the best guide is observe the plants and respond accordingly.

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itchy

organic - in the experiment you describe, was the soil a pre-mixed commercial type, or was it organic soil? the soil i use has a nutrient content of .08 -.12 - .08 and the bag says it feeds up to 9 months.

so my question is...shouldn't that be enough for now? at least until the plant is in full bloom? i suspect it may need a boost when the real flowering starts.

jcf1

I'm afraid I would have to disagree with the principle that no nutes are required.
The usage of nutes depends on a variety of factors (variety, soil type, age of plants, seed or clone, etc etc etc).
But IN GENERAL, if you use a prefertilised or rich soil (ie nearly all standard potting composts) from the outset you are VERY likely to damage younger plants. For this reason I always use a lighter mix, or leached soil to start off a plant.
However, this soil WILL NOT contiunue to support the plant, for this reason, during the vegetative cycle, it is important to transfer to a richer soil, and add nutes when necessary. The plant will not yield as well if you do not fertilise dynamically, throughout the plants life. The nute regime should be careful and based not just on recommendations on the label, but on observations of the plants.

The basic reasoning behind this can be demonstrated when we compare plants growing outdoors, with potted plants. Most potted plants have access to a far smaller volume of soil, and also nutrient base. Outdoor plants have a large volume of soil, and nutrients.
Outdoor soil is a dynamic system, with nutes and water being cycled round a greater area, salts being washed out, etc. A pot is a closed system, and has a very limited potential for holding nutrients; if there's a stockpile of nutes in the pot that will be enough to last the plant through till the end, as you suggest, then the plant will be sitting in an overconcentrated nute medium to begin with and an underconcentrated to finish.
We need, in plant growth to provide a given concentration of nutes, to match the plants needs, NOT a given amount throughout the lifespan. Thus, a dynamic In-Out system, not a nute stockpile.

Furthermore the fact remains, that plants requirements nute-wise in flowering (>N, <P) is considerably different from during vegetation (>P, <N), and if we use different nute formulae that correspond to this at the right times, then we ALWAYS get better yield. IMHO

All that said, if you overfert, you will burn, or even kill your plants, at least reducing yield, being nute-happy is a very silly practice. Balanced, careful, gentle and measured addition of nutes, based on observations of the plants, forethought, and stage of growth will always work better than anything else, and I have seen some successful indoor no-nute grows, but I could have done better with nutes!

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Stoned Dog

From my personal experiences, the plants need nutes. My first grow was done with commercial pre ferted soil and I had nothing but problems. It's near impossible to control the amount of ferts those time release granuales are releasing. Had alot of burn and would never use it again. I then went to a really good organic soil that was real rich in nutrients and said I wouldn't have to fert for 45 days. I needed to add some blood tea after about 3 weeks as the plants were lacking in N. So, I would love to hear how this works out for you but I have doubts that your going to be happy with the quality and yield like Organics said. I would love to find a receipe for a soil that I only had to mix up once that would take a plant through it's entire grow. That would be great! But so far I haven't so I'll keep trying. Good luck and happy growing

organic

In the Soils section of the library there are some ideas for a basic organic-based soil mix that will take you from start to finish - however, this is intended as a basic mix to get you started on the concept. In reality, most of us who concentrate on soil building still supplement with various things at different times in the plant's life cycle. Jcf1's post was a beautifully written and thought out summation of the philosophy of fertilization.

One small caveat is that with a properly composed organic soil - this means encouraging a soil biosystem, not just using blood meal - will help balance things out so that you can put the majority of your nutes in at the beginning and not have dramatically too much to start and too little at the end. However, as I mentioned, it's pretty hard not to add in a little bloom fert here or a little alfalfa tea there

O

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jcf1

Thanx Organic!

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john berardas

hey organic
i have used blackgold since the begining 4 me. i thought i would try somthing else, so i went w/ oceanforest by foxfarm. you also say vermiculite can be a factor in over watering, i have always used Ver. in conjuction w/ perlite, always 2 to 1 {p/v}
in the past i added xtra castings to blackG. w/ not that big of a diff. i thought the xtra amount would do somthing.
ocean forest has lots of benaficial ingreadiants, if you have xperiance w/ it please let me know your oppionion or i will let you know.
so far i have seen outstanding results!! 100% organic is my goal.

organic

Never tried that brand, but it sounds as if it's been working well for you - what is the ingredient list?

About the level of worm castings, research has shown that increasing the percentage above 20% really doesn't add any benefit, with the optimal benefit occuring at a rate of 10-15% of the soil mix combined with use at the germination/seedling level. (This is quoted from personal notes taken from a presentation by a w.c. researcher, I don't have any references to cite unfortunately.) The interesting part was that use of worm castings at the earliest stages of plant life seemed to provide benefit to the plants even when they weren't used as part of the soil mix beyond that stage.

If you are using compost, vermiculite is redundant and may cause problems. Both of them have water retaining properties (in the case of compost, remarkably so); however, you won't have problems if you carefully monitor your moisture levels. It's just simpler to use one product, and the benefits from compost outweigh the benefits of vermiculite when using an organic medium.

Thanks for the input

O

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Santorini

I would like to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. Didn't realize the importance of such a topic at first, but you guys have really taken it up to a new level!!!

It cannot be stressed enough the importance of top grade soil guys. I only came about noticing the importance of it just a few days ago as my plants showed signs of nute defecincy only 10 days after being planted in new pots with new soil!

In any case thanx a million everyone for your contributions!!!!

Cheers

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