Bugs living in ebb and flow system damaging roots

Healer · 09-03-2009, 12:18 AM

1. Are you growing from seed or clones? clones
2. How old are your plants? always happens while they're flowering
3. How tall are your plants? 2-3 feet
4. What type of hydro system are you using? ebb and flow
5. What brand/type of nutrients are you using? General Hydroponics
6. What is the Ph of your nutrient solution? 5-6
7. What is the PPM/EC of your tap water? around 200
8. What is the PPM/EC of your nutrient solution? 1000-1200
9. What is the temperature of your nutrient solution? 60-70
10. Does your PPM/EC show a rise or fall when you do your daily PPM check? stable or slight rise
11. Does your pH show a rise or fall when you do your daily check? usually rises just after reservoir change, then falls
12. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything? I have treated them as described below
13. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined? (HPS, MH, fluorescent, halogen, incandescent "plant lights") 800 watts of HPS
14. How close are your lights to the plants? several inches
15. What size is your grow space in square feet? about 12
16. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space? 60-75 F
17. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space? as described below
18. How much experience do you have growing? about 2 years

There are tiny white bugs on the surface of the water in my reservoir, in the pots and tray. There are a lot of them, about the size of a grain of salt but elongated and they are floating on the surface of the water and sometimes hopping to land on pots and sides of tray. I've been having problems with roots turning brown and it seems likely that these bugs are eating them because I've researched and done everything recommended to keep white healthy roots, low temps, hygrozyme and weekly reservoir changes but they're still turning brown. Here is the best picture I could get of the bugs. Each of those white specks is a little bug that floats along the surface of the water and sometimes hops in and out of the water.

I found this and thought they might be thrips larvae:

Quote:

THRIPS
Most adult thrips are slender, minute (less than 1/20 inch long), and have long, narrow wings. Immatures (called larvae, nymphs, or pupae) are similarly shaped with a long, narrow abdomen but lack wings. The entire cycle from egg to adult requires from 12 to 16 days. Most thrips range in color from translucent white or yellowish to dark brown or blackish, depending on the species and life stage. A few species are more brightly colored. They hang out on undersides of leaves.

Thrips feed by rasping the surface of the leaves and sucking up plant sap. This results in silver-colored, bleached tissue lacking in chlorophyll, accompanied by black varnish-like spots of excrement. In addition,the damage caused by thrips feeding can cause twisting and distortion of leaves and flowers. The silvery resin they leave behind has also been reported to attract powdery mildew to the garden.

Adults must be killed at the leaf level. The adults however mate in the medium, thus the larvae must be attacked at the root zone! Below we have broken the two types of control into treatment for the leaves (which will kill the adults) and also treatment at the root zone to kill the larvae that are lurking in the medium. Make sure to attack and treat both regions.

Treatment methods for the Adults (at leaf level)
...

Treatment methods for the Larvae (at Root Zone
...
ORTHO SYSTEMIC KILLER
Systemic Killer obliterates pests at the roots. It will kill larvae and just about anything else in the medium. Make sure you apply, then FLUSH 3-5 hrs. after application w/ pH’d water. Repeat this drench as necessary (up to 3 times). Apply to one plant first, then apply to rest of garden

Systemic killer Application Rates:
Mix 1oz. per 5 gallons of solution. After application, make sure to FLUSH 3-5 hours later with ph’d water. Repeat as necessary.

When I flooded the tray with this solution as it rose to the top I saw bunches of the little white bugs crawling away from it, all over the top of the hydroton but it didn't kill them! Then I found this thread at another forum that sounds just like the bugs here, and that person had silvery/shiny marks on their leaves indicative of thrips too, in another ebb and flow rock garden. I've been dealing with thrips off and on since I started growing, but didn't think they messed with roots. I used malathion which did kill them, but also kills or nearly kills plants. The bugs turn from white to black when they die as described in that other thread too, besides the way they move. I wish I had a camera good enough to show them but they are almost too small to tell what they look like with my good eyes even.

Quote:

the maggots jump. they float aswell. even floating on the surface they jump. they fly a few inchs.

i did not think thrips larve collenated roots, or jumped. but silver/shiney reflections off the leafs are saying something.

they appear to be white. black when dead.

After they and the plants were gone I washed the tray, reservoir, tubing and pots with soap and bleach, and sterilized the grow rocks with bleach as well. Now the bugs are back. Does anyone know what they are and how I can get rid of them?

CRAZYTRAIN · 09-03-2009, 12:45 AM

Shit I think I might have them too. Buzz! Where are you????

*buzzmobile* · 09-03-2009, 01:29 AM

Springtails

Sprintails again.

Quote:

Effects of spinosad on earthworms and soil microorganisms have been investigated in the laboratory. Results indicated that application rates of 25-150 g/ha should not cause significant effect on soil microflora respiration. Earthworms were not very susceptible to spinosad (LD50 > 970 mg/kg, Jachetta 2001). There is little research on the impact of spinosad on insect soil detritivores and their predators, including ants and springtails. However, since some spinosad products are targeted against fire ants, a soil dwelling species, it is likely that there would be some impact against other soil fauna

Healer · 09-03-2009, 09:48 AM

Thanks for the help. What I read at those links mostly discusses soil, and says springtails do not usually cause significant damage and are even a sign of healthy soil. The bugs I have look and act like the springtails are described, but my roots are definitely being damaged and this is hydro, not soil. Has anyone had problems with springtails in hydro and if so how did you get rid of them? I'm going to look for some Spinosad today. Does it have instructions for use against springtails in hydro? If not what concentration should I use and how long should I keep it in the reservoir? I really want these gone today.

*buzzmobile* · 09-03-2009, 12:17 PM

You won't find specific hydro instructions on Spinosad. Soap will kill springtails. You're on your own as to the concentrations to use in your reservoir.

Quote:

Springtails are another bug we see a lot of in summer wherever there is a lot of water. They are small and white-ish with a small hooked tail they use to spring and jump with. You often see them in the top of a pot or on the water surface in Aquafarms and other hydro systems. You know that these small white wriggly things aren’t a form of scarid fly lava because there are no flies around and they spring and jump. You can get natural predators to get rid of them but as they tend to come and go and do no real harm to the plant over a three month cycle, I won’t worry about them, they’ll probably just be gone one day. You can flush them away to a certain extent, and they don’t like Oxyplus.

The above quote comes from this site.

I also came across someone saying they using Bacillus subtilis to wipe them out, but that doesn't really sound accurate because that's a fungicide

Healer · 09-03-2009, 03:21 PM

I tried Lowe's, Home Depot, TSC and a couple of large nurseries but unfortunately none of them had anything with Spinosad in it or even heard of it. Not having any idea what to get really except not Ortho Systemic or malathion, I bought Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer for soil and turf which has the active ingredients Imidacloprid .72% and B-Cyfluthrin .36%, and Ortho Max Tree & Shrub Insect Control with 1.47% Imidacloprid. Both are in bottles designed to be attached to a hose and sprayed on the ground, but I'd rather measure the water and mix them together to know how much I'm applying. Which of these would be better to use, or is neither ok? Could I pour soap through the pots to kill them instead? If so what kind and how much?

Healer · 09-03-2009, 11:11 PM

I decided to give soap a try, read on some other gardening forums that Murphy's oil soap is good for drenching soil. I used one capful per gallon of water, poured it through all the pots, changed the reservoir and waited about three hours to flood the tray again after the soap drench. I haven't seen a live springtail, if that's what these are, since, lots of dead ones and the plants aren't showing any ill effects so far.

Healer · 09-07-2009, 11:12 AM

I've seen a few springtails in the flowering area since the soap drench but very few. I found that my vegging area had them too, lots of them. I used one capful of Murphy's oil soap per five gallons of water instead of per gallon like I poured through the flowering plant pots, and let it circulate in the reservoir for about 12 hours, 2-3 tray floods, before changing it. No soap ever went into the reservoir in the flowering room, just poured through the pots and drained to waste. I haven't seen a single springtail in the veg room since treatment and the plants look great including young clones without a lot of roots so this seems to be a pretty safe and effective treatment. I'm planning to do the same to the flowering room just before the next scheduled reservoir change. Thanks for the soap tip, Buzz.

*buzzmobile* · 09-07-2009, 11:20 PM

You're welcome.

*analog* · 10-07-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Healer

I've seen a few springtails in the flowering area since the soap drench but very few. I found that my vegging area had them too, lots of them. I used one capful of Murphy's oil soap per five gallons of water instead of per gallon like I poured through the flowering plant pots, and let it circulate in the reservoir for about 12 hours, 2-3 tray floods, before changing it. No soap ever went into the reservoir in the flowering room, just poured through the pots and drained to waste. I haven't seen a single springtail in the veg room since treatment and the plants look great including young clones without a lot of roots so this seems to be a pretty safe and effective treatment. I'm planning to do the same to the flowering room just before the next scheduled reservoir change. Thanks for the soap tip, Buzz.

How is the murhphy's working for you lately?

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