Lou Cypher

No whooops here man.
I too mayan, kept moms for more than a year taking clones from them, but always "secondary growth", never I have let a brunch go to a higher brunching.

I started [re-freshing] my donor plants cause I got tired dealing with woody stems of an aged mom.

Anyhow, that is not where a clone looses its "dna purity" you might say, is at rooting.
Read this article.

[When you take a leaf cutting from a plant and grow it into a new plant (vegetative propagation), you are cloning the original plant because the new plant has the same genetic makeup as the donor plant.
Vegetative propagation works because the end of the cutting forms a mass of non-specialized cells called a callus.
With luck, the callus will grow, divide and form various specialized cells (roots, stems), eventually forming a new plant.]

What happens when you clone a clone is, that callus that actually has the [program] of the structure of the mother plant gets 'thinner' from generation to generation.

In my words, it doesn't have the [core] of the main stem, as stem progresses on an adult growing plant, that core gets thinner and thinner, thus third buds don't have the same potency as secondary or main buds.

How many times you hear people with big gardens complain that not all their plants look like the same pheno.

That is cause the clones came from different brunching, where growers with small gardens tend to take only secondary growth cuttings thus they end up with a uniformed garden.

Its a deep debated issue though, still talked among scientists who have no idea what mother nature is doing.

Most insist that the proper way to clone a plant is to take cells from the root mass, cultivate that, and plant the tissue and you'll end up with an identical clone to the original.

I can only go by experience here and say that, third brunching and higher doesn't clone as easy or has too many similarities with the donor plant.
Only secondary growth IMO has the original genetics of the mother plant, and only a top will carry the genetics of that mom to her off springs.

More than but .....

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mayan

Wow...really interesting stuff. Thanks for the explanation. Now...would you say that it solely the structure of the clone that changes...accounting for a difference in appearance or would you also say that there is a corresponding change in potency and/or other behavior like nute tolderance, flowering time?

Also, something that you said is really intriguing.
You said - "In my words, it doesn't have the [core] of the main stem, as stem progresses on an adult growing plant, that core gets thinner and thinner, thus third buds don't have the same potency as secondary or main buds." Are you saying that plant position determines the potency of a bud as well as the amount of lumens it's receiving (and its genetics, etc) or are you using "potency" to mean its growability?

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nigel

The picture helped a lot. best wishes nigel

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M_Jacobs

Wow that picture Helped sooooo much. I still had to re-read the post a good 5 times to understand the clone of the clone won't be an exact clone concept but in the end I got it. I just wish I knew all of that information about 3 weeks ago.

I topped all my Jack Flash moms to prepare them to be super mom plants haha.

How can I preserve the pheno of a specific mother if I uhhh lost the original top LOL hahahaha.

nigel

i apologise for complex words, but that is the language geneticists speak,

the best way to google up answers to genetic questions.

GENETIC DRIFT - from Cannabis Eye magazine.

Genetic drift is the change of a population of organisms over time.

ALLELES - are variances, or mutations of a gene. Over time an allele either dies out in a population, or is inherited by 100 % of the population.

A mutation can be positive or negative, positive ones win out due to survival of the fittest.

Ed Rosenthal [ask ed] these mutations occur in both normal sexual [by seed] and asexual [cloning] reproduction. It is natural and will always occur.

CLONAL DRIFT - GOOGLE - each generation cloned varies over time. this can be positive or negative, and is very affected by the environment they are grown in.

a garden club noted that clones of roses and irises, planted in different parts of the country, then cloned from,

eventually resulted in either the strain dying out or becoming a new phenotype to cope.

FOUNDER EFFECT - the smaller the population, the greater the number of times a recessive or mutant gene will occur.

So if 1 person has 6 fingers and lives in a population of 1 million, it will over time still be rare.

if however that person breeds in a population of 200, then over time a large percentage of the population will have six fingers. [see studies of Amish communities]

portals closing so will say what this means to us next post.

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nigel

You are right Lou there is a bit of controversy about genetic drift in clones

'genetic drift' gc, 31st march 2003 - does not occur in clones because process asexual,

but Mr Rosenthal and science say mutations also occur in asexual reproduction; it is part of nature, how evolution works.

In a plant, there is the phenotype - what the plant looks like.

and genotype - what the plants genetic makeup is.

The top is the perfect example of the plant in both phenotype, and genotype,

The secondaries however are not. In phenotype they might be light deprived, not get enough nutrients etc,

because the plant is sending it to the top. The top is it's best chance of survival as a species.

The secondaries, are more likely to have alleles, either through neglect or not getting enough building materials or just chance, [all mutation is random]

so are not only not the perfect phenotype; they are not the perfect genotype; more likely to be in some way mutated.

Due to the 'founder effect', cloning off a single plant, means you have a lower population,

as in there is less genetic diversity.

So over time those clones off clones off clones, will experience a higher amount of mutants and recessive genes.

Basically, the lower branches are more likely to have mutated DNA; and over time this will result in them being different from the mother plant.

GENETIC DRIFT IN CANNABIS.

Just google this and any of the terms in big letters first post for expanded articles. best wishes nigel

here's our other girls Lou, pic 1, mutoids fore and queen back

compared to specimens who obviously have 'allele and clonal drift problems' pics 2 and 3. lol

[pics 1,2 and 3 were clones off the same plants, pic 2 is the same as back corner, little molly is a mutoid. only difference initially in care, was the quality of cuttin]

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Lou Cypher

The plant mainly sends 60% of its nutrients through the main (core) stem to the top of the plant, 30% to the secondary growth and the remaining 10% to the higher # brunches.

Regardless how many lumen's hit the secondary or higher number buds, they will never be as potent as the main buds.

Structure mainly gets effected by the grower and the way he will be growing the plant.
What differs from brunch to brunch is the genetic make up of the plant.

If you smoked a lower bud and you found it not very potent, well, if you clone that brunch thats the potency you can expect from the whole plant when it grows.
That is its genetic make up and doesn't matter how well was grown still wont get more potent.

It doesn't matter how much light a bud gets, potency its programmed in its genetic make up and it can't be changed.
Light will make the buds bigger but not more potent than they meant to be.

More light to the lower buds will make them bigger and you'll get more yield but the quality will be exactly what it meant to be from the get go.

I think when people say I'll like to keep that "phenotype" going they mean they want to keep the "Genotype" of this plant going.
And that will only be possible by root cloning or main stem top cloning.

What pheno you'll end up with, will depend on the way you grow it.
The amount of potency that clone will carry over, will be that of where the brunch came from, from the donor plant.

Tolerance of temp/RH/nutes etc will come with every generation of clones you're taking.

And here we come to the most important thing of all, the beginning of things, Seeds.

Seeds that came from one single plant will be grown by many different growers in many different country's and climates.
Non of these growers will have the same phenos growing, regardless if the seeds came from the same plant.

The potency of the seeds that came from main buds will be more potent and carry more of the genetic make up from the seeds that came from secondary or higher # buds.

So the genotype of the seeds will depend from where the seeds were harvested off the plant, and the phenotype of the plant from the way the plant was/will be grown.

Also just to make things more confusing I'll like to add that, the phenotype of the plant can be effected if different strains are growing all together in the room.

With other words, a Sour diesel will grow different all by it self, than if it was in a room full of skunk.

IMO, there can never be two growers that can grow the same exactly phenotype.
Even if they were grown under the same environment and same lights.
There will always be some variation.

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CamperDon

Salutations,

Way too much info sooooooooooooooooooo early in the morn..
my head hurts I gotta go for a walk on the beach ..

don

n_d_shadows

Lou, how quickly can this change in phenotype take place? 1 clone generation?
I ask because on my last "shut down" I sent some cuts to a friend who was growing. When I started back up he gave me a clone back that should have been from what I had given him. Lots of similarities, stem aroma, bud aroma, crystal formation but the buzz and taste from smoking it are not what I sent him. Is it possible that in 2 clone cycles his environment was different enough to bring out other phenotypes or alleles?

hunter2021

Alright Man I've got good news and bad news

Good News!!!

I found a piece of tupperware.. WORKS BEAUTIFULLY. Brilliant idea...

A couple hot paper towels keep it at a constant 98-100% humidity, and warm... (They haven't wilted at all Idk if they are supposed to I'm kinda confused) this is third day kinda...







The Bad News

The fem Red Diesel predestined mother is kinda showing some unfavorable traits... Second node there is a leaf that is two leaves stuck together (you can see it in the top of picture) then the third node is now starting three leaves!!! WTF

So what do you think, should I scrap her and start another red diesel from seed??? I still have white diesel and ww.

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