Common sense security.

SledgeHammer · 09-01-2002, 02:06 AM

The Preface: I am speaking to strictly personal grows here. Not a good grow with enough left over to disseminate on the Black Market, but personal grows. If this includes enough left over to be generous and be the bowl loader, that is included. Furhter, imagine the Bell Curve. Personal grows mimic this with 400-600W being the peak, and even slightly closer to the left. 1000W is the right end of the curve, as above this, a compent stoner is overproducing or smokin' 1/2 oz. a day, neither of which I am speaking to.

The Premise: You get busted, it is your own fault - period. You have failed to use common sense in your security measures, or you have chosen to role the dice in your situation. To the best of my knowledge, the majority of LEO's are not setting up task forces to bust 6 or less plant grows. Too time consuming and with poor results. First time offenders with 6 or less plants often do not spend time in jail. LEO's can bust all they want, but it is up to the local or federal DA to decide what to procecute in a full blown trial and what to plea bargin with. Court systems are backed up. Not productive use of funds to spend the time tracking down unknown personal growers. Not cost productive - lots of time and money involved for little hard time.

An example. Prostitution stings are done all of the time. A realitively minor offence, yet the LEO's cannot say before hand who they will nab. But they are effective. Why? Just like growing, they are fully aware of the commision of the crime. The difference is that they know WHERE this happens and know that if they wait and protray either a ho or john, the bobber will sink. Not so with personal grows. If you are smart, they have no clue where it occurs in general. There is no specific street or area in which the offenders offer themselves as easily.

IF YOU ARE A PERSONAL GROWER, A LEO HAS NO IDEA AND DOES NOT HAVE THE CURRENT RESOURCES NECCISARY TO FIND OUT. IF THEY KNOW, YOU SCREWED UP.

Where to start.

Whirly birds with flir, aliens and anal probes, and other things from the night sky that people freak out about without Common Sense: First and foremost, Flir cannot be used to detect a grow and than used as evidence without a search warrant. If a search warrant is granted by a magistrate or judge for this, too late. They already know and are just supporting their case. Time to hire a lawyer, and if caught by FLIR, time to figure out who is going to watch your dog while you are locked up.

Go back to the premise. 400W HPS. So what. Suppose that even if it is not legal, they observe IR signatures from above. What would they see? You got a 400-600W HPS with a reflector that concentrates the energy down. Meanwhile, your next door neighbor has a 300-500W halogen lamp with a reflector that directs the energy up. How are you going to stand out? Remember all of the things in your home that give of IRR.

Funny thing is, the reason that IR has been considered unreasonable was due to a 100 plant grow in an attic. Someone who grows 100 plants (clones and mum's included), is no freind of mine as they are involved in the Black Market and look to profit off of yours and mine misfortune. Imagine the watts required to support 100 plants. Yup, the dude stood out next to his neighbor, which is why he got busted, and although I am glad for the ruling, that is one POS that should go to jail, as he is a member of Black Market profit that takes advantage of the types of smokers that this site is supposed to be about. That is why I grow - to not support or give unreasonable amounts of money to people that take advantage of the illegality of MJ. Forget the holy torch of reform - I have no reason to assume that MJ will be made legal in my lifetime. It would be nice, but who knows the future? I don't.

For those of you that worry about choppers busting your grow through IR, you are teenagers, commercial growers, or lack common sense, or some combination therof. Before I laugh at another FLIR question, exhibit some common sense.

Cop Shops posing as Grow Stores: I have read one account by a lawyer that has accused LEO's for staking out Grow Stores. Maybe their is info to which I am not privy, but give me a break. If a LEO cannot use FLIR to detect some obvious grow rooms without a search warrant, how does the logical mind conclude that a private business is a death trap and you must drive your friends car there. LACK OF COMMON SENSE.

Nothing illegal is sold at a grow store, and consequently there is no "without reasonable doubt". More importamtly, this would again be a waste of resources. How many head shops have you been in? Same deal.

Worst case scenario, that I think is nonsense, suppose LEO's are staking out a grow store. So what? I purchase in a metropolitan area where the grow store is not in my same "city" of residence. The LEO's that are staking out the place cannot come to my home, as it is out of their jurisdiction.

More nonesense and posts of teenagers and ignoramiouses that refuse to apply COMMON SENSE.

First installment of common sense security. More to follow, perhaps.

Peace.

Ganja Lawyer · 09-02-2002, 07:48 PM

I agreed with everything up to the 10- 1000 Watt lamps comment. 10,000 Watts is going to attract attention

600-1000 Watts could be a new computer.

Great Thread.

*rockclimber* · 09-03-2002, 08:31 AM

Many people get away with far more than 10 1000 watt lights all the time. What usually gives them away is the smell or "Suspicious activity" that neighbors report. Power consumption is usually the last thing that gets people caught. All the time I hear about whole mansions used for growing and the only thing that gave them away was all the people coming over. Drug dealers and such that neighbors find suspicious. And then trying to mask the odor of 2000 flowering cannabis plants.. sheesh.. some people

Dday · 09-04-2002, 01:16 AM

Not wanting to increase anyone's paranoia here but a guy I know did actually get a letter from his electricity supplier querying his increase in power consumption (this isn't in the US I should add).

The good news is that as far as I know he is still growing quite happily and the letter may have just been to check that he would still be able to pay his bill. I believe his setup was three or four 400W HPS lights running 24/7 for the vegetation stage, plus some minimal wattage for his seedlings, not outside the usage we're talking about here.

My main comment to him was the same as the above comments. He told me about the room. He shouldn't have told anyone.

denspot · 09-04-2002, 07:29 PM

Once again... this is simply to keep the perspective folks...
The number one thing is indeed to keep quiet. If you tell no-one and take the necessary precautions to keep your grow hidden, you SHOULD be safe. By far the majority of busts of indoor grows come from someone else talking... (although remember, people you know, know other people, and so on...)
but as for what happens if you are busted, still ain't that clear cut... As pointed out, in most instances, it's up to the D.A. as to what sentence they seek. While most are not interested in seriously punishing the small grower, others may consider it a personal mission. It's up to them, not you...
Also, there are circumstances that take it out of local hands, for example:
"A one-year minimum prison sentence is mandated for "distributing" or "manufacturing" controlled substances within 1,000 feet of any school, university, or playground. Most areas in a city fall within these "drug-free zones." An adult who lives three blocks from the edge of a university is subject to a one-year mandatory minimum for selling an ounce of marijuana to another adult -- or even growing one marijuana plant in his or her basement. - 21 USC 860(a); report from Congressional Research Service, June 22, 1995."
Any playgrounds near where you live???

Also - as for the growshops... uuuhhhh.... anyone ever hear of "Operation Green Merchant"??? no? OK.. well here's some stat's for you...

During a two-week period beginning on October 26, 1989, the DEA raided gardening centers and private homes in 46 states. The results of that first phase of Green Merchant -- released on November 9, 1989 -- were:

o 377 arrests of private citizens for marijuana cultivation;

o 42,677 marijuana plants seized (the Justice Department counts unsprouted seeds in soil as marijuana plants);

o 875 pounds of packaged marijuana seized;

o 2.5 pounds of methamphetamine seized;

o 5 pounds of mushrooms seized;

o 280 indoor grow-sites seized;

o 19 stores and warehouses seized;

o 11 store owners arrested (8 store owners had their businesses seized without being charged of any criminal activity);

o $7,318,000 in total assets seized.

--------------

o 19 stores closed down: 7 stores forfeited, 11 currently under forfeiture litigation, 1 store no explantion;

o 16 store owners arrested;

o $9,208,928 in total assets seized.

(No new statistics on either quantities of packaged marijuana or other illegal substances seized.)

The Operation was far from over. During the next 18 months the DEA has continued its Green Merchant investigations. The figures -- released by the Justice Department on February 1, 1991 -- are:

o 443 arrests of private citizens for marijuana cultivation;

o 50,794 marijuana plants seized (including unsprouted seeds in soil);

o 358 indoor grow-sites seized;

Of all the arrests made in Green Merchant thus far, only two people had illegal substances other than marijuana in their homes; one man with 2.5 pounds of methamphetamine, and another with 5 pounds of mushrooms. Indeed indoor pot-growers don't appear to be supporting the criminal drug trade."

This was a long time ago... but I have no doubt that the DEA have something equally nasty up their sleeves today. Remember, requiring a warrant to use FLIR only came about last year; the technology was used for many years prior to that to spot and bust grows...

I may sound paranoid, but I'd rather be paranoid than in jail. So any of you out there that think they need be anything but 100% vigilant about security, "cos what's the worst that can happen?", really might want to think again...

Ganja Lawyer · 09-04-2002, 08:47 PM

Great Post. What is your source? Also, are those "stores" siezed in your description peoples homes??? Looks like 20 of them or so w/ 358 grow sites busted, so DEA only went after about 1 in 17 sites for forefeiture.

Also, there is a 141 plant average on these busts. (including ungerminated seeds in soil).

Dday · 09-04-2002, 10:06 PM

Remember, it's only paranoia if they're not out to get you.

If they weren't out to get us mj would be a legal naturally occuring form of vegetation.

Here are some UK figures I found (yes I'm a limey so these things interest me). I know it's widely used, but this graph really puts things in perspective.

...or it would if the **!??!!* thing would display.

theres a whole report at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb402.pdf the graph is right at the beginning.

Anyone got any ideas as to why it wouldn't display? I tried it as a gif, bmp and jpeg and it wasn't that large.

IonAccel · 09-04-2002, 10:15 PM

....stir up the sediment from the bottom of the kettle again.

In our post 9/11 days, I swear the government is shifting a ton of cash away from busting home marijuana growers. I know my city and state's police budget is getting slashed as we speak.

I also believe that the feds are being told, (behind closed hush-hush doors) to stop wasting time busting for simple possession/cultivation by people with no priors.

All you recreational growers are safe. I don't think any police agency has the money to waste in 2002 on small fry.

denspot · 09-06-2002, 10:55 PM

well... at least people are giving thought to it...

Hey Ganja - the first quote was straight off an ACLU page; it's off of here somewhere, I think: http://www.aclu.org/issues/drugpolic...naArrests.html
The second quote, about Operation Green Merchant was a totse.com page, although I can't find the link right now... Do a search on "operation green merchant" and you will find a bungload of info on that notorious event... It was a very big deal...
And as for the seized "stores" - nahhh... those weren't homes/growrooms. They were called at the beginning of the article "Gardening Centers", in other words, "GrowShops"... Through covert surveilance of grow shops across the country, (including the subpoena of grow shop phone records) the govt. investigated customers, locating and busting their grow sites...
I'm not sure of the actual plant per growroom numbers. While the mean average may be 141 plants per site, if just a few of the busts were commercial, with large numbers, that throws the whole mean average off whack... In fact, based on mean average, each growroom bust would have turned up 3 grams of Meth Amphetamines; whereas in reality only one site had the 2.5 pounds seized... (More fun with statistics later!!!)

Ion - I wish I could share you opinion, but alas I feel it rather shortsighted... While local law enforcement may indeed be backing off on pursuing small mj grows, the fedral government is dramatically increasing it's assault on the personal freedoms of the individual citizens of our country, in the name of "homeland security"... Case in Point, Bush's "secret official snoop security force", that would encourage individual's whose job gave them access to peoples homes and other private areas (ie. your mailman, cable guy, lawn service, etc. etc. etc...) to report anything "suspicious" to this govt. agency. Ya know... to keep the terrorists in check... Fortunately they weren't able to sneak that one past (I think!) But a lot of people's privacy will be tromped on in the name of "Freedom" over the next few years, cos that's what happens when you are "at war", as we supposedly are now...
So I still think we are better off being VERY, VERY, VERY safe, rather than sorry (jail after all, is a very, very, very bad place to be...)

One last thing - Sledge - how long have you been smoking? have you always grown your own, or had it given to you?
- your quote "Someone who grows 100 plants (clones and mum's included), is no freind of mine as they are involved in the Black Market and look to profit off of yours and mine misfortune" would tend to indicate that... I've been smoking solidly for 22 years. I've grown on or off for 5 or 6 years of that time. For most of the rest of that time, I've had to buy my weed, which someone has had to grow!!! The misfortune came in when I couldn't find any weed to buy!!!
Seriously tho - I grow for personal use, and I certainly agree that prices are rediculous, but if it weren't for commercial growers, most of the people on this forum would never even have tried it, let alone got around to growing their own... For the most part these are not bad people, they are merely supplying a demand that we all agree should be legal; what's more, while we may remain fairly confident that if we are busted, the punishment will be mild, they can be pretty damn sure that they are going to jail!!!
It's the government that call's them black market, not me...

Growing your own is a hell of a lot safer than having to buy it, in my opinion. BUT some districts consider growing anything to be WAY worse than buying a small bag. I have a good friend that went to jail for growing weed (he was young and dumb!!!) He's been in jail for about one and a half years now, and has been violently and consistently raped every night for most of that time. He's been in the hospital several times after being brutally beaten nearly to death; (I don't think he was getting raped then...) Hope y'all understand now why I am so adiment about this subject...

Just be carefull folks... the consequences of a "wrong move" are not something any of us want to face... that's all I'm sayin...

SledgeHammer · 09-06-2002, 11:18 PM

Quote:

o 377 arrests of private citizens for marijuana cultivation;

Quote:

o 280 indoor grow-sites seized;

The limiting factor. I can only conclude that married couples / roomates were prosecuted and that 280 grow sites raided. So, here we go.

Quote:

o 42,677 marijuana plants seized (the Justice Department counts unsprouted seeds in soil as marijuana plants);

On average, that is over 152 plants per grow site. Let me type that again - over 152 plants per grow site. That is NOT anywhere near a personal grow. It is however indicative of a commercial grow, which leads to LEO attention.

To the paranthesis part, correct logic by the Justice Department, as you do not put seeds in soil without the intent of cultivating to maturity.

This does not fall under "Common Sense Security", as only a fool or a criminal or a likely combination thereof would cultivate such large quantities.

Quote:

o 50,794 marijuana plants seized (including unsprouted seeds in soil);

Quote:

o 358 indoor grow-sites seized;

Man, these guys need some cultivation tips, as they only averaged over 141 plants per grow sites.

What do you think happened here? They, the DEA, went after dealers. Black Marketeers. People that profit off of my misfortune. Criminals. Make no mistake that this was an extensive investigation into commercial growers, not personal grows that I speak about. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Quote:

but I have no doubt that the DEA have something equally nasty up their sleeves today.

Easy to say, but provide some specifics please.

Look, I have not researched your data, but will take it on faith. That being said, this has nothing to do with the intent of my post, AS I WAS NOT REFFERING TO COMMERCIAL GROWERS THAT TAKE CHANCES OF EXPOSING THEMSELVES TO LEO'S FOR THE SAKE OF PROFITING ON THE MISFORTUNE OF OTHERS!

As far as the laws you stated, there are more severe examples in the US.

Quote:

So any of you out there that think they need be anything but 100% vigilant about security, "cos what's the worst that can happen?", really might want to think again...

If that is what you think I said, you either misread it, or I misstated it - I think it is the former. 100% vigilance - yes, but tempered with common sense and devoid of irrational and ignorant paranoia.

These things you state are in reference to Black Market Commercial Grows, not the personal grow I was speaking to.

Peace.

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