Mr. Cancelled

I've read all the posts regarding cops, and more specifically Ganja Warrior. And while I tend to side more by nature and principle (some would argue intelligence) with the "anti-cop" side, I have to point out something that everyone's missing the point of: This is a public web site; It doesn't matter.

No one has to enter any occupational information at all in order to post on this board. Just the fact that he's admitted to being a cop certainly doesn't mean he's the only cop that's here reading this site.

You could be a cop. I could be a cop (of course I'm not. I'm actually an angorian monk who lives at the very bleak top of the only wired mountain range in India).

And certainly of the untold thousands who are reading this site (but have never registered),there's doubtlessly (did I just make up a word there?) a sizable number of cops among them.

Let's face it. Cops generally don't like to have to work for their busts. This, in general, results in the behavior which gives them the bad raps that they have.

For example, it's easier to get someone to narc out a buddy then it is to go out and build a totally seperate case against another person.

It's also easier to profile people, and deal with them on an "image" scale, as opposed to a behavioral or individual scale. This is what results in the "police harassment" of certain groups: Minorities, people with certain looks (women with tattoos, men with long hair, people with piercings, and particular types of dress, etc.), people with certain mannerisms, etc.

They're not into thinking along the lines of "If I wanted to grow pot, how would I start? Where would I buy my stuff? Who would smoke it. Who would I talk too", etc..

That's more detective and specialty work (which, by the way, it appears Ganja Warrior's not just an average cop. He's a "Pot Cop").

Cops think along the lines of "I wonder if there's any websites or magazines for people growing pot. I could surf the web or read and get paid for it, and then I might happen to come across some information that would apply to my particular situation/scenario. This would help me score an easy bust, and then I could get those busted to narc on their friends", and so on.

Of course to play devil's advocate, profiles often are an effective way of categorizing people (Unfortunately. I wish human nature would prove me wrong on this one, but statistically it's a fact).

For instance, statistically speaking, people who are mentally or physically abused as kids tend to end up as abusers themselves (either of substance, themselves, and/or others).

Similarly, people with certain behavioral patterns congregate with people of like minds. All of these people share other interests as well. These people introduce the other people to their friends. People intermingle, and the miracle that is human interaction continues unabided.

But I digress...

People involved in big grow operations typically are concerned simply with fast turnaround for profit, and therefore are apt to behave a particular way, and to grow in similar manners (it is, after all illegal, so there's only so many ways you can grow without being too obvious).

It doesn't take a genius to think "Hey... Maybe I can find out some information straight from the growers mouth, so to speak, which will allow me to bust Jesus' Fernando" (or whatever your local dialect/drug smuggling cartel's name is)

You go to your trusty desk, surf out to the closest search engine, type in "marijuana growing", and *Whoosh*. Suddenly entire vistas of "job related research" opens up, posted by the vermin criminal themselves.

And there's nutin' you can do. So Shaddup already!

The same freedom that allows people to post messages regarding illegal substance growth and usage also guarentees a police officer the right to surf a public web site, and to use any and all information found there the way he sees fit.

Only a fool would think that posts on a public site couldn't be used by cops for research on a subject or case. And only a bigger fool thinks that these cops are going to announce themselves to the people posting "evidence".

"Um... Hi everyone. Bill the police office here. I just um, wanted to tell you that I'm going to be watching your posts to see if marijuana growers use CO2. I recently saw a guy I've been keeping my eye upon buying some downtown, so I think he might be up to something. Yeah, he runs a welding shop, but that and might be using it there, but that fact won't help me build my case against him. Anyhoo, don't pay me any attention. Just keep right on posting them delicious tips on how to hide your dope from me".

It ain't going to happen that way!

The only alternative to the current setup would be a highly secured site, requiring all users to register by showing proof of ID, signing statements, etc., and banning anyone who signed a sworm statement confirming any involvement with any law enforcement divisions.

This site, by the way, would have an active membership of say.... maybe 100-200 people tops. It would also be highly sought after and infiltrated by law enforcement under the guise of a " fact finding mission" (because such a site, in short, would require that each user sign a sworn statement saying that they either do, or are interested in the cultivation of dope". In short, a cops dream bust).

And it would get about 1/1000th the traffic and posts that this site does. The anonyminity of a public site which requires only the barest of ID (an email, which could be anonymous if one were to want it) ensures that both sides of the fence are on equal playing grounds when it comes to the posts (we post knowledge, they post disinformation. Or, if you're a cop, you'd reverse those two).

The point of all this is: Either deal with the site and it's user base, or leave immediately. By raising a big "anti-cop" stink prematurely, you only hurt yourself in the eyes of others. And in a worst case scenario, you single yourself out as having a reason to not like cops.

(In other words, you've got something to hide, as seen through the eyes of a cop)

At least wait until the cop in him comes out before you open on him with both barrels. It'll happen. You just have to wait sometimes. Someone almost got him going with the "trophy pic's" talk, but then the subject changed.

So anyway... Soapbox aside.
<ahem>

My questions:I've only seen about two questions posed to and answered by Ganja Warrior before the entire discussion was reduced to a pro/anti cop arguement...

If I may, I have some questions that I'd like to get a cops perspective on. Of course the fact that you've said that you're a cop will make anyone leery of your answers (including myself), but I think that some of us would like the opportunity to hear someone from "your side"'s opinion on some items.

For those playing along at home, I'll give my guesses on each.

1. Statistically speaking -Or of course, in your opinion, whichever you feel's more accurate, what is the single most common mistake made by the average home grower (not seller, or large scale grower), that results in a bust of some sort?

I'll guess telling other people of their plants, and then these people narc on them for one reason or another.

2. In a law enforcement view, what constitues the break between a small scale grower, and a large scale one? Number of plants? Area? Related equipment found? Amount of THC?? The same question regarding a home grower vs. someone growing to sell and/or distribute? What constitutes one or the other?

I'm going to guess number of plants for the first part, and the paper evidence on the second (for instance, what if they find a list of possible "connections" when they bust someone growing?).

Interestingly enough, the reason I ask the former part of that question is a little known fact: If you get busted for acid, you don't get sentenced based on the amount of LSD

reg

420Forever

Welcome to hempcultivation!

1: Yes, its the number of plants.

2: No matter how many plants you have you'll often get charged for cultivation with intent to distribute of some charge like that. You are right about the acid part, you can sell about 10,000 times as many hits in liquid form and get around half the sentence for with blotters (approximately.

3: I'm not a cop (but how can you know that for sure?), but I think your theory is correct.

4: They will approach the people. If they've been tipped off but don't have enough evidence for a warrant they will be very sneaking. Don't say anything incriminating to ANYONE. ANYONE. If there's a knock on your door don't say come in, say "who is it?" or better yet don't open the door if you don't know the person out there. Once in they'll look for pipes, bongs, mj, and if they even smell something funny they might search you. So be smart about that. If you're arrested don't say anything to the cops without a lawyer except your identity. If you talk to them further they'll quite often twist what you said to meet their needs. So don't do it, you've got the right to remain silent; so remain silent.

5: That question I can't answer completely but I say what I do know. Nevada is the worst for simple possession, because simple possession of any amount is a felony (although they're looking into changing that). Some states like California, Oregon, and Colorado are more lenient for possession of a SMALL (usually less than 1 ounce) amount, and will (usually) let you off with a fine and no jail. In many states possession of "paraphenalia" (which could be a lot of things...if you have rolling papers and no tobacco but weed they can count the rolling papers as paraphenalia) is a more serious offense then possession of marijuana. Further more the laws apply to MARIJUANA ONLY, and not to HASH. If you're caught with the same amount hash the penalties would be more severe.

6: The rumors are true. If you've got above "normal" power useage that's considered strong evidence for getting a warrant. I don't think they can get a warrant with high power useage alone but if there's some other little bit of evidence they'd probably be able to get that warrant.

7: That question would be hard to answer because I don't know any grow-to-sell people, and I don't grow-to-sell either. But my guess is that home growers would care more about their crop, whereas big-time grow-to-sell people would just want to grow it for the profit.

8: I believe that most people don't get weed laced with anything else. It happens from time to time but 99.5% of the time I think its not laced, at least not without the buyer knowing about it. But then it depends on where you are. If you buy it in blunt or joint form in New York City at around 3AM from a gang then I believe that it would be a lot more likely that to be laced...in fact I would be suspicious. I've never heard of it being laced with urine...but I guess, live and learn.

Hope that helps....

dattaway

Replying to, "If you've got above "normal" power useage that's considered strong evidence for getting a warrant. I don't think they can get a warrant with high power useage alone but if there's some other little bit of evidence they'd probably be able to get that warrant."

Any American should have the right to use as much power as he/she feels fit. Look at the enormous sized SUVs individuals use for the daily commute to work every day just to transport themselves. Never mind they could get five times the gas milage and enjoy the trip much more with a motorcycle, it just that our country is obsessed with using <b>power</b>.

Now about our problem with our residential house and shed consuming one megawatt of electrical power. Perhaps the technician at the utility company was having a bad day, didn't like rolling the truck out to your place, and wanted to complain about your property using an inordinate amount of power compared to the rest of the happy campers on your block. Discussion ensues in the breakroom at the utility plant with its wild speculation. Next thing you know, an individual known to us as sworn to protect public safety by enforcing laws comes a knocking on your door fueld by the speculation that you have an operation going on here. Perhaps he's just curious, following up on a call, or even wants to dismiss the compaintant's call, but now you have answer his query.

Now that electric vehicles are in fact now being massed produced, I can just hear the reasoning, "I just drive a lot and my car is on the charger again." and "Yes, I really do need 480 volts three phase power to charge that thing. You ought to see the electric meter spin when the electric car enthusiast club meets from out of town to plug in."

High power consumption compared to one's neighbors shouldn't be cause for rubberneckers. Everyone is different in the way they consume resources.

420Forever

Welcome to hempcultivation dattaway!

I totally agree with you, I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was right, but that's the way it is, like it or not, unfortunately.

Ganja Warrior

1. In my experience, the most common mistake the home grower makes is letting someone else know about their operation. Former girlfriends/ex-spouses have made my best cases. The second most common mistake is other persons unintentionally finding out (ie, smell, power usage, nosey neighbors, etc).

2. The break between "small time" and "big time" is usually predicated on plant numbers. Federally, 100 plants is the "official" break. Obviously, other factors come into play. I once sat on a 12 plant grow because we "knew" the local County Board of Supervisor member was the grower, and he was. Sophistication of the operation is another factor. A small, highly sophisticated operation will draw more interest than a few plants in a hand watered garden. Presence of booby traps or other injurious devices, or the presence of armed cultivators and prior assaultive behavior will get you alot of attention. Paper evidence is something we can't consider until we get it, you know after a search warrant, etc. Generally, law enforcement had used the number of plants as the determining factor between personal use and possession for sales. With the various states passing medicinal marijuana laws the number of plant that consitute personal use is undergoing a dramatic change. If we catch someone with two plants, but they have a list of buyers and "pay and owe" sheets, they make the "big time." Some agencies use "gross weight" when determining the quantity of drugs, which does include the packaging material.

3. Many kinds of people get into law enforcement. We are a microcosism(?Spelliing) of our society. We do tend to get more of the authoritarian type folks, but they tend to weed themselves out throught citizen complaints, brutality charges, etc. The average cops that I know are people that really care about their community, and want to make it a better place. Police work, especially in big cities, tends to make the officers cynical as they see society at its worst, and the citizens respond to the police with anger and disturst because of the context they encounter them. Police become very withdrawn and only associate with each other which increases the cynical outlooks and behavior. And, yes, I did grow up in the '60s and smoked my share of pot, as did many of my fellow officers. I quit back in the '70s. And I woun't knowingly and intentionally provide specific information to help anyone avoid a bust.

4. The procedural steps in any investigation vary to the extent that the information varies. Generally, all investigations proceed along the lines of 1)verifying the information, 2)identifying the perpetrators, 3) develope probable cause for search warrants, 4) obtain and execute the search warrant, 5) analyze the evidence obtained and 6) bring charges. With indoor grows, the specific steps depend on the nature of the information. Generally, we try to establish that there is an indoor grow first. That entails various steps such as identifying the current residents and checking their prior history, checking power useage, FLIRing the structure and surrounding structures, and checking for smells. It's not too hard to determine if there is an indoor grow unless it is well hidden, with its own power source, and produces no heat leaks and smells.

5. Oregon, California, Hawaii, are probably the mmost lenient on "small time" growers. There may be more in the East but I've never worked back there. Nevada still has the most draconian drug laws of any state I am familiar with.

6. Power companies do not "narc" on people. Sometimes their "revenue protection agents" will provide information if they suspect someone is stealing power by by-passing the meters. Generally, we need to serve legal process on utility companies to get information. If information is "slipped" to law enforcement officers, it cannot be used in developing probable cause.

7. All growers use the same general techniques. I have seen "small time" growers with all the bells and whistles and I've seen "big time" growers with just the basics.

8. Experienced buyers buy quality dope, and inexperienced buyers sometimes get ripped off. Generally, here in California, everyone knows what good bud looks, and smells like. There is still a big market, mostly in the mid west, for mexican and asian dope. the problem with buying anything on the black market is that it can contain anything, including the things you mentioned. Smuggled dope may have traces of the substances in which it was smuggled, including gas, oil, etc.

Panama

Thanks for the info, GW, always a pleasure to read one of your posts.

Ganja Warrior

Mr. Cancelled.

I'm a little disappointed in you post to about my replies to Joker's challenges. Had you read them closer, you would have realized that joker was the one who began the military related interrogations. Admitedly, I should not have replied to them but I did.

I'm not worried about some defense attorney using these posts against me. They have heard me express these same attitudes in court and in conversations with them and prosecutors.

I have been called "soft on crime" by prosecutors because I do not believe the federal manditory sentencing guidelines are justifiable. A coupla kid growing 600 plants do not deserve the same base sentence as a repeat offended using juveniles to gorw the same number of plants.

I tried to answer you questions posted in this thread as fully as possible.

As to the "whys" and "horror stories" of why cops do what we do, if they are pertinent to a question, I would relay them. Suffice it to say, there are reasons why we do things. One of the first "horror stories" I heard as a dope cop was from a woman who's husband we had arrested for being a large scale distributor of imported marijuana. She told me about when they had just started getting "big", some masked robbers came to their home. After pulling the braces off of the teeth of a 17 year old juvenile with pliers to get them to reveal the hiding place of the money and dope, they took her into the bedroom and raped her. Because of the illegal nature of their business, they never reported the crime, but continued the lifestyle.

You can't expect me to reveal specific information anymore than I would expect you to reveal specific information. There are these laws called Misprison of Felony, and Aiding and Abetting the Commission of a Felony that my co-workers would have as much fun bashing me with as they would bashing you for growing dope.

I haven't made much of an attempt to hide my identity. I e-mailed Sativa when I first registered and asked his permission to post. He advised me that some may not take kindly to my presence. Oh well.

I will continue to respond to any serious questions, understanding that it will only be general information, or personal insight into law enforcement actions and thinking. There are plenty of other persons on this site who have good security information. You can judge for yourself who they are.

And finally, yes, I do use this site to gain knowledge on the current state of marijuana cultivation techniques, much as I do reading High Times. Much of all dope cops' experience comes from growers, as in our experiences when taking down grows, reading their liturature, etc. I DO NOT expect to find the "hot tip" that will allow me to make a big bust on this site or any other site.

Joker1.5

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I'm not worried about some defense attorney using these posts against me. They have heard me express these same attitudes in court and in conversations with them and prosecutors.

by Ganja Warrior
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You really should be. If you can be identified your office could be overwhelmed with Information Subpoenas. Someone has to answer them. The written word is worth so much more then the spoken. Any Smart Ass Lawyer with some free time could make your office life hell. That's a Fact Jack.



[This message has been edited by Joker1.5 (edited July 13, 2000).]

Ganja Warrior

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joker1.5:

Quote:

I'm not worried about some defense attorney using these posts against me. They have heard me express these same attitudes in court and in conversations with them and prosecutors. by Ganja Warrior <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You really should be. If you can be identified your office could be overwhelmed with Information Subpoenas. Someone has to answer them. The written word is worth so much more then the spoken. Any Smart Ass Lawyer with some free time could make your office life hell. That's a Fact Jack. [This message has been edited by Joker1.5 (edited July 13, 2000).]

Joker, We deal with FOIA requests on a regular basis, and have a pretty smooth process for responding.

The point I was making, is that most of the defense attorneys that I deal with already know my feelings about personal use marijuana enforcement. They would not have to do anything other than call me and ask for whatever they are looking for.

It is not lost on anyone who I work with, that I try an focus on the "big guys" and go out of my way to ease the weight of the big "G" on the peronsal user.

If I happen to snap up a smaller "fish," I am usually the first to go to the DA/US Attorney and recommend that we do some "creative" plea bargining to get true justice.

"Preferiential treatment" and "entrapment", as Mr. Cancelled eluded to, have no bearing. Entrapment is an objective determination where the governments causes someone who, on their own would not commit a crime, to commit a crime. I have stated over and over that growing dope is a felony . The fact that someone wold sign onto this site shows they have some level of predisposition to grow dope, and nothing I have written compells them to do so.

All law enforcement officers have discretion in how they apply the laws they are entrusted to enforce. I never lie, ignore, or turn a blind to violations that come to my attention.

How I proceed, what my recommendations to the prosecutors, are a matter of discretion. While I have stated that as a matter of personal policy, I do not arrest fellow Rangers, I do, and did in the two cases mentioned, report my findings, make recommendations, and follow up on my recommendations. Of course, this personal policy does not just apply to Rangers. I could mentions other various instances where I have exercised my discretion with "average citizens" whose situation appeared to require it. As Mr. Cancelled pointed out, however, that is not what this site is about.

And I am not stating any of this to toot my own horn, and will again point out that this is in response to the subjects raised by others.

I am mereing stating this as I recognize that there are ingrained attitudes and feelings towards cops because of the nature of the topic, and if this eases some of that it is good. I do not expect everyone to like me, and frankly, I don't care one way or the other. I only hope I can contribute something to help someone, in a general sense.

I think I have explained myself in this and previous posts, so will no longer respond to personal attacks, or virtual coin checks