F1 F2 hybrids

nitrous · 07-24-2002, 02:46 PM

I've been studying strains and am trying to find out exactly what F1/F2 stands for when seedbanks are talking about their hybrids.

Actually I have 2 questions:

1. What does F1 or F2 stand for
2. Are F1/2 hybrids the real thing or not as good?

Thanks,
nitrous

3hounds · 07-25-2002, 03:23 AM

You could write a textbook on this topic, and not cover everything, but in a nutshell...
IBL= In Bred Lines- these are the varieties that have been inbred (like breeding daughter back to father, their daughter back to original father, and again) over many years to the point that they are very stable dependable varieties. IBL's include the landraces (MJ indigenous to a country, like original Thai, Mazar Afghani, Colombian Gold- the old faithfuls of MJ) and the "newer" varieties that have been stabalized like Skunk, Durban, Northern Lights.
Technically an F1 is the hybrid that results from breeding two IBL's- it is the first filial (get a dictionary!) generation- F1.
F1's are generally very uniform and dependable, as they express the dominant genes from each parent. When it works you will get some outstanding weed, like White Russian is an ak-47 X White Widow hybrid (the female is always listed first when you write ___X___).
Now- if you breed two F1's you get--- F2's- they are from the second filial generation. With this breeding, you will get a mix of results. Remember your Mendelian genetics from school- the pea breeding monk? This is where you need to know this stuff!
With this mix you get into words like homozygous, heterozygous, genotype, phenotype, etc. and you really need further reading on that.
Mendel's Genetic Laws is a great easily understandable guide to the laws of genetics.
The F2's do not all look alike- the genetics express differently in this generation. The F2 generation is when all those pesky recessive genes get expressed, and you get your "throwbacks".

I said in a nutshell right?
In the marijuana community you see F1 written to mean "I bought seeds from a breeder and bred them and the resulting seeds are F1 crosses. Breed the F1's and you get F2's." Not technically correct, but common usage just the same, and this is where we are all getting confused IMO.

If you are just growing to smoke and have fun, any of these will give you great results. If you are serious about raising a strain, get the real deal from the breeder via a dependable seedbank- every set of hands that randomly breeds a generation will lose something of the original quality.
If you don't actively select for something when breeding, you will lose that quality. As there are so many qualities we like to select for (high, flavor, size, flowering times, taste, eye appeal) everything requires a huge operation growing out thousands of plants to select just the right one. We can't do this in the US. So we buy seeds from the great breeders in counrties like Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Australia that are more liberal. This is where you get the good stuff, but it costs $$ as research and breeding on a scale like this is expensive. The knockoff seeds you see for sale much cheaper (C-Bay) are second and third generation, and may not come up to the reputed standards of any given variety.
At any rate, check out the Mendel link.... it is fascinating stuff.

*OzGrowa* · 07-25-2002, 04:29 AM

Id say you were in essence largely correct 3hounds but I would add mendel's model has big problems explaining many things expressed in cannabis, on CW there is a forum called the Gene Frequencies forum Moderated by Vic High the breeder, he is exploring the concepts of persistence and RRS ( Reciprocal reocurrent selection) as thess two areas may better explain the polygenic and poly gametal issues that have been proven by some of the oldtimers recently, mendel gets into trouble is the gist. Take a read of it if you are interested in current and advanced breeding topics, Im sure you will get into it, I love the area myself. Heterosis is another term for the f1 hybrid vigor too it gets used interchangeably with hybrid.

anyway Im rabbling but my point is f2's may show either dominant or recessive traits or they may not, as will f3's and f4's, the RRS model can explain this readily, check out this link for some of the concepts, there is a link to Cornstalk there too from memory.

f1's rock in the garden, they have explosive growth

3hounds · 07-25-2002, 05:43 AM

I knew Oz would be right behind me clearing up the grey areas. I'm somewhat limited (or hindered) by the fact that all of my experience with genetics is from a dog breeding background. Our polygenic traits and those genes with incomplete penetrance behave quite differently than MJ. We are currently rethinking some of our long time practices since the inbreeding coefficients have become so easy to figure using the new PC programs. I don't know that MJ breeders are using the same models- after all, the goals are quite different.
Thanks so much for the links........ this is my current topic of study, though it will be a long time task.

*And* I was just walking through Wal-Mart thinking "I could have explained that a whole lot more simply", so here goes:
An F1 is the first generation offspring of two different stable strain parents.
An F2 is the offspring of two of those F1's.

nitrous · 07-25-2002, 09:57 AM

Thanks for the very detailed and technical replies! This is exactly the reason I became a regular here.

So let's see...

IBL x IBL = F1
F1xF1 = F2
F2xF2 = F3

I get it. First thought that pops in my mind is what's F1xF2? lol!

Anyway, I'm sure I won't be breeding anytime soon because I haven't yet achieved that level of confidence, but I will read the links provided and learn as much as I can so that when I want to begin breeding (and I know I will) I'll be ready. Until then I have what I need to choose my seeds wisely.

Thanks again,
nitrous

3hounds · 07-25-2002, 10:05 AM

what's F1xF2?

Incest?
Seriously- that is line breeding, inbreeding (to some) or backcrossing.

xyz · 10-10-2002, 10:05 PM

Never too early to start breeding if you plan to at anytime in the future.

Start two (or more) different strains
Move those daddys out and save some pollen.
Hand polinate a bud or two on a couple of different ladies and put a plastic bag over those buds. Tie loosley with twisties with a paper/tape tag on them so you can keep track of which males polenated which buds.

You can harvest all but those buds if the time is right.

Keep a log of what you do ant the traits you want to perpetuate.
Plant the seeds and track what you get. Good clear record keeping is a must.

At the least you climb the steepest part of the learning curve and you ditch the strain and start over.

At best you find something you like and you are a generation ahead, or something like that.

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