born042079

Just so we are all on the same wavelength:

Dirt: Sand, clay, minerals, and other non-carbon based (inorganic) compounds
Compost: Decomposed organic matter (anything from cow poop to grass cuttings)
Topsoil: Dirt and compost
Potting soil: Sphagnum moss and compost (some verm/pearl)

The term "compost enriched" is a marketing ploy... It sounds good doesn't it? In reality, you cannot have a potting soil without "enriching" it with compost. Its like saying C02 enriched seltzer water. Without the C02 its just water, so saying C02 enriched is redundant. Well without compost, potting soil is just plain sphagnum moss. So, saying compost enriched is just a redundant marketing ploy.

When you go shopping for soil, look on the back of the bag for ingredients. The organic potting soil that you already have probably contains pretty much equal parts sphagnum moss and compost. The compost in the soil is probably from indigenous plant matter in your area. For example, the compost contained in bags near me is made of decomposed pine bark from Southeastern US pines. Potting soil mixes may also contain some vermiculite or pearlite, but for some reason or other they are pretty sparing with it. So, to juice up your organic potting soil a bit add 2 parts potting soil to 1 part vermiculite and 1 part pearlite. Add in some water saving beads for good measure and you are set.

"isnt there something that is just a regular unenriched soil that i can mix with vermiculite and perlite, and have a good soil medium to use with chemical ferts?????"

This is called hydroponics. Unenriched soil means plain dirt or spagnum moss with no organic matter, ie sand/clay. Mix sand or moss with pearlite and vermiculite and you have a hydroponic medium. All good, but now you have to use hydroponic growing techniques to suppliment the nutrients found in compost. However, make it "compost enriched" and now you've got potting soil or topsoil. Compost enriched potting soil is what everyone uses with chemical ferts.

"I grew with organic potting soil before, and used chemical ferts with it before, and there wasnt any problems, but last time my babies ended up dieing because of what seemed to be an overdose of ferts, even though my chems were only to 1/4th of strength of 10-15-10 and the plants were like 3 weeks along."

There can be many things that go wrong and look like they were an overdose of ferts. For example if you pH is too high or low you can lock nutrients in the soil and the plant will suffer from burning. Get a pH test kit and if anything starts going wrong, post in the nursery. Also, try to find a chemical fert more along the lines of 20-10-10 for veg. I mixed my own using a 20-30-20 and a 30-10-10, combining 2 parts of one and 1 part of the other I got a 26-16-13.

"will using the full strength of a chemical fert on a plant hurt it if its in organic potting soil?"

It will hurt it in any medium. For MJ in a soil grow, use no ferts in the begining. 1/4 stregth at age 20 days. 1/2 strength from day 30 until you flower. If you veg for a really long time (6 weeks or more) you may be able to eventually get the plant up to full strength. Regardless though, keep in mind MJ is very sensitive to over ferting.

"is the compost enrichment of the soils i see supposed to substitute for chemical ferting?"

No, it is a compliment to, not a substitute for ferting. It fills in the micronutrient gaps while providing very mild, very slow releasing NP and K. There are essentially two ways to fill in those micronutrient gaps. Either you add compost or add hydroponic nutes. Think of compost enrichment in the sense of a pile of leaves and grass clippings. If you leave it there for a year it will turn into dark brown dirt with lots of worms in it. That dark dirt isn't dirt at all... its compost. Compost is decomposed plant matter or decomposed manure (which is processed plant matter and bacteria) that is high in micronutrients.

"this is simply what i dont understand. im worried about it being overdone, because chemical ferts are what i want to use, and will use, and to there full strength after the first 3 weeks or so."

Again, typically MJ cannot utilize chemical ferts at their full strength without burning. Gradually increase from 1/4 strength... and if you ever get up to full without burning them, then great but it shouldn't happen untill the plants are fully mature.

"if i use the organic potting soil, which i already have, and mix it 1 part perlite per 2 parts organic potting soil, will using the full strength of chemical ferts at the normal stage to begin using full strength chem-ferts over-fert them?"

I recommend 2 parts potting soil, 1 part verm, 1 part pearl and unless you have trained your plants to accept it over time (6th+ week of vegging), never use the ferts at full strength.

I hope this helped and sorry if I misunderstood you before. I was stewed, I'm sure you can understand.

Peace,

Born420

TonDerudesKa

n_s
Sorry if I too misunderstood you.

born hit on the important parts. So..I won't repeat all that.

Here is a good mix that a lot of pro's use. Or at least something very similiar.

Start with a base of soiless mix....like Peters Pro Potting mix. All it has is Bark, sphagnum peat moss, and vermiculite.
Take 2 parts of this. Add.....1 part perlite, 1 part vermiculite, 1 part earthworm castings, 1tbs lime,1 tbs blood meal, 1 tbs bone meal. These figures are for a gallon of mix. This will give you a good airy medium that is loaded with goodies. This is a soiless organic mix.

I will reiterate about using chems. It is VERY easy to burn the hell out of your plants. You MUST use them diluted.

Are we getting closer to what you want?
cy

born042079

"Start with a base of soiless mix....like Peters Pro Potting mix. All it has is Bark, sphagnum peat moss, and vermiculite.
Take 2 parts of this. Add.....1 part perlite, 1 part vermiculite, 1 part earthworm castings, 1tbs lime,1 tbs blood meal, 1 tbs triple phosphate. These figures are for a gallon of mix. This will give you a good airy medium that is loaded with goodies. This is a soiless organic mix."

cy:

I am considering using a hydro setup next time but should I decide to use soil again, I definately want to go organic as opposed to chemical like I did this (my first) time. Chemical was just less intimidating the first time around. Lets assume that I start with exactly what you said above, what else would I need to be fertilizing with down the line? Keep in mind that my grow is indoors and I can't be using things like fish emulsion because of smell factors.

Also, one other question for you... does lime act as a buffer and stablize pH or does it actually change it? I know you use it to combat the sphagnum moss acidity, but I didn't know if it was being used as an alkaline salt or a base.

Thanks,

Born420

nova_scotian

so, i will get an organic potting soil and mix it with perlite/vermiculite, and for the first 20 days just water it with water.
Then, from that point on i will water it with a 1/4 strength chemical fert.
At day 30 i will be inducing the flowering stage (when they are at 10 to 12 inches in height) Ill use 1/2 strength then.

I have 10-60-10 shultz bloom plus
10-15-10 shultz plus
and 15-30-15 miracle grow, in which order would you recomend that i use these ferts?

if i have misunderstood anything, please let me know. but so far, you all have helped give me much assurance, and when i get this going i will be posting pics on MyCannabis Images forum.

Nova

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Nova Scotian

TonDerudesKa

I want to correct something in my previous post. I had triple phoshpate in there instead of bone meal. Don't try using the triple P unless you know Exactly!! what you are doing. For beginners....just stick with the bone meal for P supplement.

born....
you will prob need some more ferts down the line. But...if you want to go with organics...ya gotta be ready to deal with some smell. The fish emulsion is stinky...and the blood meal...when you make that into a tea..and you uncap that container....it REALLY stinks. Recommend pouring the stuff outside even.

The lime is good for counteracting acidity. Raises the pH and helps stabilize it. Used as more of a base.

cy

TonDerudesKa

Yo n_s....

well...of course...the bloom is for flowering. of the other two...use the one that has less urea N in it. These are salts that build up in your soil with chemical ferts and have to be flushed out periodically or they will reach toxic levels. If you can...find something with a higher N ratio for veg growth. Probably...the 15-30-15 would be better to use for veg, if that is all you have.

Good luck
Keep us posted.
cy

born042079

I would go with the shultz. If you read their package, they claim to have less salt buildup problems than their competitor (miracle gro). Also, the shultz's 10-15-10 has a better RATIO of N to P and K than does the 15-30-15 miracle grow. I believe ratio is more important than quantity. For example a 5-1-1 is better for veg than a 10-60-10; even though it has less N (5 compared to 10) its the ratio that is important, not the exact number. The mircle gro's ratio is 1-2-1 and the shultz is 1-1.5-1. 2-1-1 is what you are after, so shultz wins in my book.

Check into ferts for orchids, they have very high N values. I used 2 parts of Peter's Orchird Formula (30-10-10) with 1 part of Shultz' regular grow fert (20-30-20). The net result was a 26-16-13; almost a perfect 2-1-1, ratio which, like I said, is what you are after for veg. If I had used Peters 20-20-20 to mix, instead of the shultz, I could have had a perfect 2-1-1, but who's counting? Besides I like crossing brands because you get better chances of getting all the micronutrients.

I intend to use the same "Shulz's Bloom Plus" that you have for flowering. I've considered mixing it with another brands bloom formula (perhaps Peter's) to make sure I get all the micro nutrients. CY, what is your opinion on mixing two brands chemical ferts?

Peace,

Born420

nova_scotian

as long as potting soil that says its 'compost enriched' can be chemical ferted at the right stages, to the correct strengths with otu being harmful, im happy. and will have pics up after my court date.

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Nova Scotian

TonDerudesKa

I see nothing wrong with mixing ferts. Just make sure you don't overdo something and induce a fert burn.

I also like your reasoning on which fert to use, born. I agree.

cy

blizzardofozz

I had the very same questions when I first started. You hear so many techniques and combinations that it is mind boggling, especially when lit! I approached my medium and fert choice on the idea of less is better. Meaning that I started with a 2 part bag dirt(like the 40lb for a buck kind) added 1 part perlite and 1 part vermiculite. Then I mix a little blood meal (maybe 1/4 cup) per gallon container for veg. That was it. After the sprouts had about 3 nodes and the stalk was firm and stiff, I supplimented with one teaspoon of alaska 5-1-1 fish emulsion per gallon of water. I used this every time I watered unless I saw I sign of yellow leaf tips or anything else that wasn't green and vibrant. Using this my normal veg period is about 4 weeks from sprout and 6-8 inches tall. Hope this can help!
Later, Blizzard of ozz