absimiliard

Ya know, we have a debate around here about whether or not to trim fan-leaves that are shading buds way too often.

I'm thinking that maybe we need a controlled experiment to determine the facts of the matter. Currently there are two competing hypotheses out there, each with their own supporters, but neither with good solid evidence.

So I propose that we test it. Someone, probably me if no one else does it, should take an identical pair of plants (clones obviously) and trim one and not the other. Admittedly our statistical sample is terribly small, but we do have the essentials, a subject and a control. Identical treatment, aside from the trimming, and side-by-side pics should answer the question definitively.

The criteria for judgement are easily identifiable. We judge the results based on which plant has the best weight at time of harvest modified by a potency factor if there is a marked difference between the plants. (unlikely but possible)

I'd happily do it myself, and will if no one else does, but I can't start for a few months. I need to get my current grow up and running and get some clones for the experiment. If anyone else was willing to do the experiment earlier it would surely be appreciated by all of us here.

__________________
Cool sigs are for cool people. I'm just a llama.
-Absimiliard

LittleFatDog

my friend said when he was in amsterdam, a lot of the grow companies trimmed all but one blade on the fan leafs - think big bird. must look crazy - well that's what the dutch are up to anyway.
-LFD

TheGreenMan

maybe another significant thing to measure would be the bud to leaf ratio, i.e. whether one or other treatment causes the plant to grow more or less leaf (as well as the weight of the budz yielded) and particularly whether this was different for plants with leaves removed during veg and plants with leaves removed once budding is well under way.

Go for it 'Ithicus

Green Man

absimiliard

Excellent, Smokin is on board as well.

GreenMan: Not a bad suggestion. I'd say we could ask each participant to try to gauge that. But we should be leary of comparing that data-point between participants since it's fairly subjectively judged. I'd say the same applies to my initial idea of adding a factor for potency in, worth looking at from an individual grower but difficult to measure across growers.

So, as I see it, that's Brian sometime soon with his current clones, Smokin in like a few months or so with his new clones and me sometime end of December or early January. It'll take us a while to get it done but that's three points of data. That ought to be sufficient for our purposes I'd say.

If we each do two plants we'll have a study of three different genetics each with a control and a test subject. I'd say that whichever result we see we can probably be confident that with three samples we got the correct answer.

So, if we three jump in I'd expect to see the final results, when my harvest comes in, around early January or late December. I should have a dry-weight by then even if I'm not done with my cure. We'll have preliminary results well before that, possibly definitave ones as well.

Thanks guys. I think this'll be a valuable test for us, and good knowledge to pin down since there isn't really a consensus view on this yet.

__________________
Cool sigs are for cool people. I'm just a llama.
-Absimiliard

TheGreenMan

Sorry to those who've read this from me before, can't remember where I wrote this thought but it seems relevant here so I'll try to condense it.

We all (should) know that when it comes to making flowers the dark is more important to the plant, than the light that it gets, as well as knowing that leaves are good because they act like little "solar power panels" to "fuel" the plant and make it grow.
Now I've also read in here about people leaving plants in complete darkness for between 2 days and 2 weeks immediately before harvest. This suggests even more strongly that during flowering the plant doesn't really require light so much, and after all what use are leaves without light to photosynthesise ??

I guess my own theory is that once a plant is well and truly into flowering it no longer cares about the "life force" it can get from the leaves - in essence leaves are to do with light power and a flowering plant is more concerned with darkness than light -
Soooooooo during veging leaves are all important and the more the better but once serious flowering starts those leaves become redundant at best and at worst a drain on the plants energy resources and should be stripped away to allow the plant to concentrate all it's energy on maling those flower clusters swell up and fill with resin - Aaaaaaahhhhh r e s i n (as Homer would say if he got turned on)

That's my theory, I guess to test it out you'd have to have 2 control plants and 2 subjects one with leaves removed during veging and the other with no leaves removed untill flowering is well under way. If I can start growing again in a month or two I'll definitely want to be testing this out, if not I'll be lookingout for what you guys report. We're all counting on you.

Green Man

spoonman

ok can anyone tell me if the buds actually use light to photosynthisize or just use energy produced from the leaves? I've always wondered and have never seen any info except more light=bigger buds that are denser. I personally have always left fan leaves on till they yellow and pull off easily starting about4 weeks before they are done budding but ive only ever grown the one strain is that norml for indica dominate hybrids?

TheGreenMan

That's a very good point and I'd be interested to know too. I can only guess like you prob'ly have yourself things like if they didn't need light or photosynthesis then why do the buds have little leaves in there with them also ?
I seem to recall reading that when the plants are left in the dark for the last week or two the buds do just as you suggested and "suck" the remaining goodness out of the leaves and rest of the plant into the budz, suggesting that maybe they don't photosynthesise but only use what the leaves provide. Which in turn would suggest that redundaqnt shade leaves hand over stored power and energy to the plant rather than being a drain and should not be removed from the plant.
There are more questions than answers
We need to find out.

Green Man

OzGrowa

I personally try and approach this from an energy exchange point of view.....

On a basic and understandable level: chloroplasts are those areas on the leafs surface that react when photons from the lamp hit them and split C02 molecules, the more area the more chloroplastic reaction...a basic energy exchange then...light hits leaves splits c02 and the process of cell division eventually starts. For a full enzymatic and chemical breakdown I recommend a basic plant or phisiology text as its too long-winded to detail here

These Solar leaves are rich in sugars and nitrogen compounds, to remove them is to remove an excellent source of these...I dont do it for this reason, it makes no logical sense. When the leaf falls off I remove it, not before. You can remove a big fan leaf, and sure there are smaller ones...but they are not as efficient in their storage or availability factors when compared to theose Solar leaves.

In regards to exposure to the light and such, well its often NOT the case that removing big leaves in order to expose the calyx/ovum formations to light equates to more growth. there is no correlation between fan leaf removal and larger buds in my cases, the last 10 years of growing has shown me this, painfully at first I may add . See Mel Frank and Rob Connell Clarkes research on this for the scientific proof we all seek.

Im sure we will keep hearing claims of larger buds from Fan leaf removal, my experiences and my reading has definitvly shown it not to be the case for me. Hope this helps you all, as allways Im open to discussion/questions on this so we all can learn some more

peace,
OzGrowa

jcf1

I've done this b4, the buds with leaves ended up much bigger than the buds without. They kept up really well, perhaps even slightly overtook the leafed plants in the first week or two of flowering, but then the other ones overtook and filled out far beyond the rest, so there!

pilotjr

i dont know much about growing but i would just like to share this. think of an apple tree. if you picked off every leaf that appeared on that tree during the spring and summer, do u think you would have any good apples? plants are all the same, they have leaves that soak up sun rays to produce buds, fruit, blooms, and whatever. does fruit soak up the sun for food or do the leaves on the tree do it? im guessin that if u leave the leaves on it will make your buds better since theres more leaves to eat up the rays, just think of it as many mouths. how bout this? someone grow a plant and strip every leaf off see what happens. just leave the stalk and see if any buds grow, they will get max. light then huh?