Delta

But that was the short answer.

Looking great o'er there, smokin'!

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myMUSICveins

about a week later? i dont know, i lost track. anywayz, just a shot to show anyone who cares how the tying progresses.

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elzz

its working great already, tied one plant down like 6 days ago or somethin, well its already lookin like a small compact little bush! much like all the pics i see of those marvelouse plants i always see posted. i was always so blown away by how compact their plants were, when in actuallity it just took some clever training techniques. im gonna have some wonderful buds, thanks for all the help.

9 Bar

Hello Delta,

I'm following this thread with interest because I'm having a go at scrog (using your tying method) for the first time, but I have a few queries:

7 foot x 7 foot lit with one 600 ? ... I use 600 watts to light 3 x 3 to keep the lumens psf over 7500, by my recconing you would have less than 1600 lumens psf ? or do you add extra lights as the plants grow out ?

which would also answer my next question ... 5lbs from 600 watts ? ... my best was 560 grams dry !

9 bar

Delta

questions in a previous post. Maybe a little more interest?

This thread was never intended to discuss construction. Training technique is all I'm trying to convey. How you create an optimal artifical environment is out of scope.

Regardless, I'll quickly recap, lumens are not watts. Get a light meter and control the HID temp and you can get your 600 to drop 7.5k, over a 5x5, no problem. Also, check out some of the high performance lamps. I'm not talking about OVER 7.5k, rather effeciently using what's available. Doing those cheap math equations doesn't compare to a good meter. Like mixing ferts from the directions vs using a TDS meter. Some things are only good in theory ... not in practice.

Don't knock it until you try it ... 7x7 is two 600s or two 400s depending ... 2-2.5#s is not unreasonable (at all!) for a 3x3 space. Build up. Vertical space permitting, neither is 4#s, for 3x3, I wouldn't think. If you retrain (artifical seasonally timed training) for increased vertical growth you can even achieve greater numbers. It really depends on how long you want to preflower your plants and how much head room you have.

Try reading about plant positioning responses and the various tropisms a plant lacks in an artifical environment.

I'm really just trying to mimic Mother Nature's optimal environment for my favorite plant. After a long study of plant physiology, I realized many tropisms are missing from greenhouses. This type of training was initially an experiment of mine to introduce the tropisms the plants would normally have gotten outdoors. Also, to eliminate the stress of topping, pinching, twisting, and anything else that is unnatural and generally not expressed in an optimal environment (like plucking nasty looking leaves!). Epitome of a grass roots effort. Heh.

I've been using (and refining) these techniques for many years and wouldn't consider them a SCRoG. If it must be an oG, maybe a Canopy of Green. Call it what you will. I liken it to bonzai training. That's where most of my reading has been focused. And, the school of hard knocks; trial and error.

Please stop asking questions like this in this thread. Maybe one day I wont post the rooms.

This thread is for informational purposes ONLY! and I used yeild as a reference and example. I clearly stated there are factors, OTHER THAN TRAINING, that play significantly in achieving optimal plant health and gene expression.

The setup of the geenhouse/room/whatever obviously cannot be understated. Just want to keep it out of this thread.

Just think ... outdoors ... and grow indoors.

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HydroBud

After reading this thread I'm inspired. I hope I did the first tie-down right and I have a few questions.

I currently have four plants, 6 weeks old from germination. They are 12"-14" high, and kind of stretchy compared to many of the pics I've seen on here. They're growing in rockwool under a 400w HPS. They have about 3'x3' of floor space.

Yesterday I tied the tops making sure they are lower than some of the side branches. Within a few hours all the leaves had turned back toward the light and this mornig the side branches were growing up. Seems simple enough and the plants look happy.

Delta9420, I see you do fine without chicken wire or any sort of screen. Are you tying each individual branch that grows 2" above the canopy?

Would now be a good time to suspend some chicken wire above the canopy and train everything up through it to spread it out? If so, do I continue tying down branches as they grow above the canopy until about 3 weeks before harvest? That'll give me about 7 weeks of training.

Any advice is appreciated.

HydroBud

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Delta

Not necessarily each individual branch. Certain ones may be higher than 2" if I am planning to encourage middle growth in the future. Hmm ... I find it hard to explain with words. It's a 3 dimensional (living) object. For instance, in a square partition or room, the corners generally are wasted space. Since I hate wasting space, I will let a branch grow as far as 6" above the canopy so I can tie it down further back into the corner. This is also used to promote plant girth as the side branches to turn upward and grow into center canopy colas.

Also, I do not let the future cola's get too close together, during training, because it promotes mold and other unhealthy consequences. I can't say this enough. Like improper respiration because of tightly packed leaves ... air flow (or CO2 injection) in the environment is another critical yeild factor. Many people think more plants will produce a greater yeild. This simply is not true. The whole theory behind SoG and SCRoG violate many of Mother Nature's valuable balances. It's almost pure plant abuse. Good thing it grows like a weed. OK, I'm about to preach, I'll stop rambling ...

It's all about the canopy you are creating. It may be more art than science. Practice does make perfect, and as you pointed out, the training is not rocket science. But, to clarify, some get strapped down to the bucket anchors and some strapped to each other. Cross strapping is also a technique employed. And, remember I use stem wire (24G), not string.

My objectives are about as simple as the methods. Some are:

* Improve plant overall by reducing stress.
* Present natural tropisms in a greenhouse.
* Maintain an even canopy.
* Efficiently use available space.

But ultimately, it was out of necessity and to rebuke the status quo. And my pure disappointment with Todd & Peter. I'm not going down that f*cking coral ... Moo!

Umm, hopefully you got my gist about the chicken wire. Part of the reducing stress part is to not keep shoving it through a screen.

Use the tall shoot method I described above to increase the girth of the plant.

Keep tying to maintain an even canopy at the desired height. I would have to admit, it takes VERY little work. If it seems like a chore, you're probably doing something wrong. Most of the training is during preflower. But stem wire makes it a breeze. The majority of the plants life is bound to the anchors set in the first few weeks. It's fun.

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elzz

ya its really easy.. on my plant i used zip ties and put em around the main branch (LOOSELY) and then stuck the left over zip tie in the ground. seems to stay put, and i can move it around real easy. Man, blueberry grows like a weed! Since i put it in a proper sized pot its like doubled in size, within a week and a half. thanks to these training methods, i have a huge ball of green. Theres all these little shoots everywhere, i can just tell, when i say the word "flower" this baby is gonna shoot off buds in all directions. THIS is the key to keepin short plants, high yeild.

About Bonzai.. i once read in one of those crummy high times articles, called Bonzai training.. but it was nothing like this. It involved cutting off all the fingers on the leaves so that they each only had 1 finger.. then it said to top at like every other node, so until you have as many tops as you desire. They said it was so that it looked ilke a bazil plant or something, and you could put it in yur window and nobody would know it was bud... but i figure this method is the real true form of plant abuse.. another case of high times messin with peoples grows.

Delta

I never read that article. What month/year, do you remember?

The bonzai I'm talking about has been practiced for centuries in China and Japan. True bonsai is the reproduction of natural tree forms in miniature. Ultimately controlling the growth of a larger specimen to produce a dwarfed version suitable for indoor viewing pleasure.

In Japanese, bonsai can be literally translated as 'tray planting' but it actually originating in Asia centuries ago. Throughout history it has developed into a whole new form. To begin with, the plant and the pot form a single harmonious unit where the shape, texture and colour of one, compliments the other. Then the plant must be shaped. It is not enough just to put plant in a pot and allow nature to take its course. Every branch and twig of a bonsai is shaped or eliminated until the chosen image is achieved. From then on, the image is maintained and improved by a constant regime of training.

It is the art of dwarfing trees or plants and developing them into an aesthetically appealing shape by growing and training them in containers according to prescribed techniques.

Great reading ... tons of info out there if you're interested.

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Divorum

Delta, first of all, thanks for your posts, they have helped me a lot during my first grow, probably saved me years of trial and error procedure.

My question is as follows; does training require a larger potsize? My plants are in 2-gallon pots, two weeks into flowering, they're about 15" high and 20" wide, would you recommend a transplant?

This is not the subject of the thread but i remember reading in one of your threads that you used a medium somewhere in between hydro and soil. Would be really sweet if you did a growjournal from scratch explaining this method along with
a closeup on your plantfeeding, i know i would follow your every move

Laters, keep up the good work!

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